Opinions wanted for wireless Umpire Indicator!

[Guest Tyler Thompson]

Hi everyone,

My name is Tyler Thompson and I am a junior baseball player and mechanical engineer at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Our capstone design project revolves around revolutionizing the umpire indicator, and we would love your input! We are designing an electronic Umpire Indicator that can connect to the scoreboard remotely, while being able to display more information to the umpire on its screen. We are curious as to which features are more important to the design and which ones could be removed if needed. 

Here is the link to our survey and feel free to ask any questions below! Thank you for your help in advance:

https://forms.gle/5a7gk5WHPUWwLt4e6

[umpstu]

Have the indicator display the numbers large enough, and contrasted enough, that it would be easier for us older umpires to see.  Especially in night games at poorly lit fields.

[Velho]

Sounds like a good project. Keep us updated.

[ChrisUrbz]

Sounds great!!

[noumpere]

Do a search -- this same project has been discussed before.

 

Personally, I would not have wanted it.  More than once, the scoreboard was right and the indicator was wrong, and more than once the umpire had the right count in his head even though the indicator was different.  Let each back-up the other.

[beerguy55]

21 hours ago, Guest Tyler Thompson said:

Hi everyone,

My name is Tyler Thompson and I am a junior baseball player and mechanical engineer at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Our capstone design project revolves around revolutionizing the umpire indicator, and we would love your input! We are designing an electronic Umpire Indicator that can connect to the scoreboard remotely, while being able to display more information to the umpire on its screen. We are curious as to which features are more important to the design and which ones could be removed if needed. 

Here is the link to our survey and feel free to ask any questions below! Thank you for your help in advance:

https://forms.gle/5a7gk5WHPUWwLt4e6

As the father of an engineering student who's gone through a capstone, and is now pursuing their PhD, I will start with one question.  One question many engineering students fail to ask, because they're more focused on the "cool" of the technology, rather than the practicality/usability/need.

What problem are you trying to solve?

I think you will find there's not enough people who think there's a problem here to solve to buy the product.   Most especially umpires.  The scoreboard is something the fans, coaches and players use, not the umpires.  It's not the umpire's job to ensure the scoreboard is right, and most umpires don't look at the scoreboard.   It may be a problem that fans or coaches want to solve.  But, you want to solve that problem by putting a new tool in the hands of the umpires.  

People, Process, Technology...You're asking the wrong people.  The fans/coaches/players (and, maybe by extension, the leagues) think this is a problem, not umpires.  You need to ask the right customer what they want to see on the scoreboard.  I also suspect if you told said customer how much it would cost to solve that problem it would drop on their list of priorities.

Then, if all the leagues that want to make the coaches/players/fans happy decide that this Process needs to change, then you have to ask the People (umpires) who are going to use the Technology their needs, as it pertains to the technology, in order to meet this new requirement...not to outcome on the scoreboard.  The umpire's requirement is to know the count and number of outs.  And to be able to accurately tell that to the players when needed.  Tying that to a scoreboard would be a change in requirements to their basic job description.

You have two sets of requirements for two different customers...you're asking the wrong questions to the wrong customer.  IMO the umpire will have three needs - is it easy to use, it is always going to work, and who's paying for it?

Here are the secondary problems you will need to overcome:

Connectivity - how will said device connect to any scoreboard, in any field, seamlessly/automagically?   Otherwise, the field now has to provide the indicator to the umpire, an indicator paired with the scoreboard. 

Cost - How much to ensure all the scoreboards have the standardized wireless/bluetooth/whatever technology needed?  How much will the indicator cost?  Batteries? Who's going to pay for it?  And if you're going down that road...why not an app that can be used on any apple/android device?  You can go down a dozen rabbit holes here, with many possible ways to solve this problem, from manufacturing new devices, or using ones that already exist (whether or not the umpire already owns one)...all are going to come back to $$$.    As an example, for me, I have an iPhone and an Apple watch - if you're going down this road, I'd want an app that I can then enter on my watch, which could then all sync with the scoreboard.   Anything's possible with infinite funding.   

Consistency - slightly related to the above, today you already have some fields with a working scoreboard, some without...now you'd have some fields that connect to the indicators, some that don't

Score - the scorekeeper handles the score, not the umpire - now you need two devices managing the scoreboard for two purposes

Umpires are Human - sometimes umpires forget to update the indicator, but know the count/number of outs (or, at least, between the two umpires, they do) - now, their innocent mistake has been made public for all at the field to see...when it gets corrected you are now dealing with a potential crowd reaction that was not there before - today, an umpire can say the scoreboard was wrong, my counter is the source of truth...in the new world, they'd have to say "I F*#Ked up"

Umpires Don't Use Indicators  - right, wrong or indifferent, many umpires don't use, or need, indicators to track count/outs

Extraneous - batteries die...forgot to charge it...didn't hold a charge...something to be said for a manual indicator that can't die.  Won't connect to scoreboard...Unless this works seamlessly 100% of the time, no umpire is going to buy into it...last thing they need is to troubleshoot why their indicator isn't connecting to the scoreboard...and, frankly, it's the last thing must umpires will or should care about. 

 

Once you take the umpires out of the equation, and recognize it's purely a need/want for everyone else, then you can open the possibilities - especially if you ignore money:

• Scoreboard connected to a voice activated device near the plate that updates based on umpire's words
• Camera on the scoreboard running on an AI that can determine (and learn) by the umpire's actions balls/strikes/outs/etc - and can also see runs as they're scored
• Robo-umps that are connected to the scoreboard

And if you keep umpires in the equation - why make them buy/carry yet another electronic device...most people already own some kind of device that could run an app.  Otherwise...neural implants...

 

[834k3r]

21 hours ago, Guest Tyler Thompson said:

Hi everyone,

My name is Tyler Thompson and I am a junior baseball player and mechanical engineer at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. Our capstone design project revolves around revolutionizing the umpire indicator, and we would love your input! We are designing an electronic Umpire Indicator that can connect to the scoreboard remotely, while being able to display more information to the umpire on its screen. We are curious as to which features are more important to the design and which ones could be removed if needed. 

Here is the link to our survey and feel free to ask any questions below! Thank you for your help in advance:

https://forms.gle/5a7gk5WHPUWwLt4e6

Personally, I'd love to take the survey but I don't want to sign up for a Google account to do so. #YMMV

[urout17]

Most scoreboard operators at the HS level and especially below, do not keep up with the game and often have the wrong count.  When I'm working HS games I'll explain this at my plate meeting and if there's a question of the count please just ask me. I'm a huge proponent of making sure everyone knows what the count is at certain intervals, as this is how I was trained many moons ago.

My two cents.

Good luck to you on your project!

[ErichKeane]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Connectivity - how will said device connect to any scoreboard, in any field, seamlessly/automagically?   Otherwise, the field now has to provide the indicator to the umpire, an indicator paired with the scoreboard. 

 

 

ONE Big thing to note here:  Umpires have different preferences for their indicators, and those who use them are generally going to be doing them by muscle memory, so you need to make sure that they match what they are used to.  3 vs 4 dial, 3 ball vs 4 ball, Strike/Ball vs Ball/Strike, etc.  Else, they are going to be inaccurate or never used.  SO EITHER you have to expect every field to have a vast variety of preferences, you need umpires to purchase their own indicator for this. 

For the former solution: you now have to buy ~10 indicators for every field, many/most of which are going to be unused, likely killing batteries non stop.

For the latter solution: I as an umpire don't really care that the field scoreboard gets updated, that is some teen in the press-box's job (or some parent with gamechanger).  So there is no way I'm going to pay anything more than a 'dumb' indicator, and even then I probably wouldn't if it isn't exactly like the one I have and like.

 

ALTERNATIVELY: I wonder if there is perhaps a greater interest in an interface-device for existing scoreboards to hook into gamechanger?  SOME way for the home-book (or whoever the person updating the gamechanger app is) to make it so updates from the app go directly to the scoreboard.  The challenge is that the scoreboard controllers are far from standardized interfaces, so you probably need to engineer a solution on a per-manufacturer bases.  The device would have to be web-enabled somehow, which probably means a cell-phone chip (and a cell-phone plan!).  Additionally, I don't believe gamechanger makes it easy to get to their API for something like this, so you'd have to convince them to share that.

[beerguy55]

I would also advise to use a different survey tool - one that allows anonymity and not the requirement to create/use a google account - SurveyMonkey, Office365 Forms, etc.

It's more under that "ease of use" thing I mention above.

If my post above falls under TLDR, here's the abridged version:

• Scoreboard accuracy is a requirement for fans/players/coaches
• Count/out accuracy is a requirement for umpires.
• Make sure you're asking the right customer to solve the right requirements.  
• Make sure you're not changing a process/job requirement for one customer to solve a problem defined by another customer
• If you're giving a tool to an umpire to help them with their job it must be easy to use, always work, and not cost them more than their current tool
• Productivity always wins - people will always use the tool/process that is easiest/fastest to do their job - if you want them to do something, you either need it to be easy, or make what they want to do instead really hard

[Guest Tyler Thompson]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I would also advise to use a different survey tool - one that allows anonymity and not the requirement to create/use a google account - SurveyMonkey, Office365 Forms, etc.

It's more under that "ease of use" thing I mention above.

If my post above falls under TLDR, here's the abridged version:

• Scoreboard accuracy is a requirement for fans/players/coaches
• Count/out accuracy is a requirement for umpires.
• Make sure you're asking the right customer to solve the right requirements.  
• Make sure you're not changing a process/job requirement for one customer to solve a problem defined by another customer
• If you're giving a tool to an umpire to help them with their job it must be easy to use, always work, and not cost them more than their current tool
• Productivity always wins - people will always use the tool/process that is easiest/fastest to do their job - if you want them to do something, you either need it to be easy, or make what they want to do instead really hard

Thank you for your responses. Our current plan was to create this device and sell it to the leagues and organizations that would want them. We are trying to mimic the functionality of the current indicators as closely as possible. The major differences are that this will be controlled with buttons in the same spot that the current dials are. In its most basic form, the indicator will act just like the current ones except that it will have the count directly connect to the scoreboard (or just display digitally on the screen). The additional features we were looking at adding were a pitch clock with a buzzer to show when a pitch clock violation has occurred. A run scored button, so whenever a runner scores the umpire would just click the button to add it. Lastly, An undo button incase an error was input. These features as well as a couple other less important ones were the ones I included in the survey to get an idea of which ones were seen as most important and which ones were deemed not important. The device will automatically switch between innings once 3 outs has been recorded. 

In terms of what the umpire would be "required" to do. They would need to track balls, strikes, outs, and hit a button whenever a run has scored.

The organization or league would be required to make sure the batteries are charged and the device is connected. 

 

If you have more questions or concerns please let me know. I love hearing this point of view as it helps us make sure what we are making is in the best place it can be. Thank you!

[kylehutson]

5 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

ALTERNATIVELY: I wonder if there is perhaps a greater interest in an interface-device for existing scoreboards to hook into gamechanger?

THIS is the idea you should really be getting behind IMHO.

[834k3r]

17 hours ago, kylehutson said:

THIS is the idea you should really be getting behind IMHO.

Absolutely agree.

[The Man in Blue]

Add me to the "you're looking for the wrong solution" crowd.  By rule in most (all?) codes, umpires do not keep score or make statistical/scoring decisions.  There is an official scorekeeper charged with those duties.  In the youth/amateur game, that is often "the home book" (again, by written rule). 

If you are exclusively looking at scoreboards for youth/community programs, I agree there needs to be a better interface to scoreboards and that could lead to more functionality.  The vast majority are still using same basic system that has been in place for almost 50 years: a controller box that is basically just a fancy set of light bulb switches.  (One place I referee volleyball has replaced their scoreboards with projectors, large screen TVs, and a laptop program.  Not as practical for outdoors, but a neat solution that was MUCH cheaper than the old NESCOs and it gave them a ton of flexibility.)

If you are wanting to better the umpire indicator ... look at the existing project to create a digital one and build from there.  I would like time-keeping capabilities, given than most youth games are now played under a time limit and higher level games are now implementing strict pitch clocks.  However, I also don't want to have to look at my indicator (last year I moved to this bad boy: https://www.ump-attire.com/Products/UC5-BC/All-Star-4-Dial-Die-Cast-Steel-Umpire-Indicator-3-2-2-Count

This is a catch-22 with a digital format.  Honestly, I think the solution (for me) is NOT a digital indicator, but a traditional indicator with notched wheels and time keeping (and vibration) technology implemented.  That solves a problem for me.  Adding a scoreboard to it creates a problem for me.

 

 

[beerguy55]

On 2/27/2023 at 2:11 PM, Guest Tyler Thompson said:

In terms of what the umpire would be "required" to do. They would need to track balls, strikes, outs, and hit a button whenever a run has scored.

You're changing the umpire's job.  Careful.   Remember that you have two different customers, with two different sets of requirements.  Even if only one of them is actually buying the product.

And, Customer A hires Customer B to do a certain set of tasks for a certain fee.  If you ignore that dynamic (one which you have no control over) you risk alienating one of the customers...or forcing those customers into negotiations.   At best, umpires grudgingly accept to use the device at those parks, but over time deprioritize working any games at those parks...at worst, umpires refuse to use the device at all, and it ends up in the hands of the scorekeeper, and be entirely redundant.   The umpire doesn't care about the scoreboard anymore than they care about the price of hot dogs at the concession stand - it's not their area of responsibility.  (they may have a personal interest, but it is not in any way relevant to their job)

I would just as soon have scoreboards in amateur settings not even track the count.  Leave it for professional/seasoned scorekeepers in more "professional"/appropriate settings - NCAA, MiLB, MLB...LLWS perhaps.

 

Keep in mind - the only reason the scoreboard isn't accurate is because the scorekeeper/operator is human.  Well, so is the umpire.  Just because they have an indicator connected to the scoreboard doesn't mean the count on the scoreboard will always be accurate.  The scoreboard is the responsibility of the scorekeeper, or some other delegated person assigned by the league/facility.  The problem needs to be solved there. You're trying to solve the problem of one person not doing their job, by elevating the responsibility of someone else.  (imagine if your boss said to you "well, Fred isn't doing their job, so I'm going to add his tasks to your list")   If it is the scorekeeper's job to ensure the count is accurate, just like it's their job to ensure the score is accurate, then it's up to their boss - even if they're a volunteer -  to ensure they're doing their job.   If it's not the scorekeeper's job to worry about the count on the board, then it's nobody's job.

 

[mac266]

I tried to take the survey, but there is nothing asking me whether I want the device.  I'm with Beerguy55 above. 

I worked in an independent minor league last year, and in the same game I had to correct the scoreboard three times.  I wasn't watching it, but the batter informed me that it was different from the count I was giving the pitcher.  Typically you'll only find that at lower levels, but everyone in this place was full of potheads.

[The Man in Blue]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The umpire doesn't care about the scoreboard anymore than they care about the price of hot dogs at the concession stand - it's not their area of responsibility.  (they may have a personal interest, but it is not in any way relevant to their job)

 

Careful now.  One of those is very important to me at tournaments that don't feed us.  😉