what do you have?

[Double Up]

 

[Double Up]

I'm calling out for the runner being out of the base path on the attempted tag.  Easy one for me with the replay. 

I'm honestly surprise the call onthe field was overturned,  unless the 3rd base or 2nd base saw this clearly. 

[Kevin_K]

When a play was being made on BR he was within 3' of his established base path. Once F3 stopped pursuing the BR, any limitations on his location became moot.

There is no rule in NCAA, NHFS, or OBR that prohibits a runner from retreating toward home plate.

 

This was discussed previously

Here is an MLB example of the BR retreating:

[noumpere]

I have clueless announcers.  Then again, that's redundant.

I also agree with Kevin K on the correct ruling.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

I have clueless announcers

Baseball games have announcers?

[MadMax]

6 hours ago, Double Up said:

I'm calling out for the runner being out of the base path on the attempted tag.  Easy one for me with the replay.

Even without the replay, this one's not a call of "out of the base path". Once the F3 drops the arm, he's no longer attempting to make a tag attempt / play. If you notice, the BR retreats (runs backwards) nearly in a straight line from his origin. The "spirit of the rule" for Out of the Basepath is to alleviate the defense from having to pursue a runner all over the field for a tag. Once a fielder (in possession of the ball, of course) gives up on pursuing does not, in and of itself, mean that the Runner is outside the 3-ft. radius (ie. the base path). 

What I noticed, and am a little irritated by, is that an NCAA D-1 crew did not go over to the opposing manager to explain what call they were about to render before rendering said (overturned) call. We are hammered on this in clinics, meetings, and evaluations that we "have to follow protocol and procedure". And what a PTB will tell us is that the MSU (DTHC) coach running out for an explanation is "really bad optics" that is prevented by going over to talk to him first prior to rendering the call. 

Me? I don't care, either way. I just don't like the double standard, especially when I/we have PTBs say that "the only qualities that separate you from D-1 umpires is how you handle situations." 

Wellllllll?  

[JSam21]

8 hours ago, MadMax said:

Even without the replay, this one's not a call of "out of the base path". Once the F3 drops the arm, he's no longer attempting to make a tag attempt / play. If you notice, the BR retreats (runs backwards) nearly in a straight line from his origin. The "spirit of the rule" for Out of the Basepath is to alleviate the defense from having to pursue a runner all over the field for a tag. Once a fielder (in possession of the ball, of course) gives up on pursuing does not, in and of itself, mean that the Runner is outside the 3-ft. radius (ie. the base path). 

What I noticed, and am a little irritated by, is that an NCAA D-1 crew did not go over to the opposing manager to explain what call they were about to render before rendering said (overturned) call. We are hammered on this in clinics, meetings, and evaluations that we "have to follow protocol and procedure". And what a PTB will tell us is that the MSU (DTHC) coach running out for an explanation is "really bad optics" that is prevented by going over to talk to him first prior to rendering the call. 

Me? I don't care, either way. I just don't like the double standard, especially when I/we have PTBs say that "the only qualities that separate you from D-1 umpires is how you handle situations." 

Wellllllll?  

Well... To be fair, this play happened almost a decade ago. Protocols have changed a lot since then. Hell they have changed a lot since 2018. 

 

[beerguy55]

This is only an out in softball - retreating towards home to avoid a tag is treated like INT...batter out, runners return TOP.  All codes, I think.

[Guest TOMUIC]

In USSSA SLOW PITCH, the rule is the same as OBR, allowing the BR to retreat without “reaching” the plate.

[BigBlue4u]

On 1/2/2023 at 1:36 PM, Double Up said:

I'm calling out for the runner being out of the base path on the attempted tag.  Easy one for me with the replay. 

I'm honestly surprise the call on the field was overturned, unless the 3rd base or 2nd base saw this clearly. 

If the coach knows the rules, you are going to have a tough time selling the b/r out of the baseline.  The rules specifically states the runner will be out for running more than three feet away from the base path to avoid being tagged. The b/r just reversed himself.  That being said, the umpires are obviously in a mess. Back in the day, you just died with the call.  Not anymore. Someone correctly mentioned it earlier, when you have something like this you must get both coaches together at the time you discuss your ruling.  But, here's something else.  Making a ruling one way or the other is going to completely screw one of the teams.  Do you blow it off as "just baseball." or, and I hate to use the term "do over," just tell both coaches we're killing the play and will bring the batter back with his count before the pitch. (8.01c) Not a perfect solution, but at least it's a solution that gives each team a piece of the pie.  And, while I am at it, I hate it when it's said a play is not reviewable when just one look shows what clearly happened.

[Mad Mike]

One other observation, it is not immediately clear who called the out. Mechanically, we talk about plate taking the tag before the 45' foot line starts and base umpire taking the tag the rest of the way....except if a tag is applied when we are blocked. In this play, when Mississippi State begins to argue batter-runner (BR) was tagged, the first base ump appears to point at the plate guy. He might be saying something to the effect of 'the home plate umpire has a tag' to explain to BR why he is being called out.

This is a tough play to officiate, because plate has to stay on the line to get fair/foul and officiate possible runner's lane interference. Base is blocked and can't see a tag due to the first baseman's body. Plate is blocked due to the BR's body.

Now, in a 2-man system, the base umpire is going to be inside and will probably get a better look than plate will have on this play.

Question for everyone: Is this where a good pre-game comes in that the crew--no matter the size-- If the primary calling official is in doubt and can't see a tag to immediately get help asking their partner, "Did he tag him?" (if no answer comes immediately, then make a call) or should they make a call first and then convene and get help at that time?

[Vegas_Ump]

I got the manager ejected for getting in the face of the plate ump and THEN going fishing for a call with U1.

Mike

Las Vegas

[JSam21]

7 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

I got the manager ejected for getting in the face of the plate ump and THEN going fishing for a call with U1.

Mike

Las Vegas

Nothing here is ejection worthy. First base umpire is the crew chief. There is also some situational awareness/context that needs to be known. This is the last weekend of the regular season and the winner of that game makes the conference tournament. 

[noumpere]

18 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Do you blow it off as "just baseball." or, and I hate to use the term "do over," just tell both coaches we're killing the play and will bring the batter back with his count before the pitch. (8.01c)

It's heads-up baseball by the BR.

A "do over" is the worst possible call on this play at any level.  I'd have serious reservations about even a t-ball umpire who called that.

[ArchAngel72]

I  Did not listen only watched ( no sound)  who called the out on the tag?

 

In the end I think they got the call correct with safe. I see no out of running lane issue not at that distance.  But yeah correct overturn and based on what I saw I assume it was 2nd or 3rd BU that helped make that call. 

[lawump]

Didn't hurt the plate umpire's career. LOL.  He's gone on to do a ton of Super Regionals and two CWS (and rumor has it he will be doing #3 this year). 

[Catch18]

Is this where a good pre-game comes in that the crew--no matter the size-- If the primary calling official is in doubt and can't see a tag to immediately get help asking their partner, "Did he tag him?" (if no answer comes immediately, then make a call) or should they make a call first and then convene and get help at that time?

Please don’t do this. Make your call as U1. In an off-chance I get blocked, am looking at another responsibility, get dirt in my eye, hit by a thrown bat and go down, etc…..if you “don’t know” and then come to me and I can’t necessarily make a call, it looks terrible - we now have 2 umpires with no call. If PU can’t offer you anything, what would you do as U1?

Better to make a call, then, if a team disagrees, we can get together and then come to an answer.

[concertman1971]

26 minutes ago, Catch18 said:

Better to make a call, then, if a team disagrees, we can get together and then come to an answer.

 

this. If you are U1, Please don't come to me for this call unless you have your half of the game fees in hand ready to give to me. Like @Catch18said, what if I happen to be caught up looking at something else.

[beerguy55]

22 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Do you blow it off as "just baseball." or, and I hate to use the term "do over," just tell both coaches we're killing the play and will bring the batter back with his count before the pitch. (8.01c) Not a perfect solution, but at least it's a solution that gives each team a piece of the pie. 

"Do over" is the worst solution imaginable - even in a school yard at recess.

There are two options here - out or safe.

We don't know when PU called BR out, how animated it was, if anyone heard it...or if it influenced F3 at all...my guess is F3 simply assumed BR was out for retreating/out of base path, and gave up on his own, without knowing what PU did or did not call.  If that is the case, the safe call is very easy to make, with U2 or U3 saying they saw daylight on the tag attempt to give PU the information he needs to change his call.

If PU's actions influenced F3 to give up on the tag, stick with out call under a "what likely would have happened" scenario (or simply choose to ignore U2/U3's comment that they saw daylight)...ie. BR could only retreat so far before he'd be out whether there was a tag or not.

Down by two, giving up an out to move both runners into scoring position is a questionable coaching decision.  Playing for the tie, not the win.

By flipping your situation from R1/R2 zero out to R2/R3 one out you have increased the likelihood of losing the game.

If he was truly the game's best bunter, then bunt to get on base.

Historically speaking, a team down 2-0 in the bottom of the ninth wins slightly more often with R1/R2 and none out vs R2/R3 with one out. 

[lawump]

18 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

We don't know when PU called BR out,

Spoke with one of my close friends last night...who happens to be an SEC umpire.  We weren't talking because of this thread, but I brought it up.  He was well aware of this play/video as it has been shown and discussed numerous times on their staff.  He stated that U1 called the B/R out on the tag.  Obviously, there was no tag, but U1 thought there had been a tag.

Simply put, it was a missed call by U1 on a tag/no tag.  They didn't kick a rule in that they had not called the B/R out for retreating or being out of the baseline.  U1 just flat out missed a tag/no-tag.  It happens to the best of the best.  Tim Tschida, one of the best MLB umpires of his generation, called a runner out in the 1999 ALCS on a play in which the Yankees' middle infielder's tag attempt missed the runner by almost two feet.  Sometimes we get straight-lined and we lose all depth perception.  When you're in the magic spot ("magic" in a bad way) where you are perfectly straight-lined...you lose all depth perception and a two-foot gap between the fielder's glove and the runner's body appears to be a tag.  That is apparently what happened here.

And, as for the lack of the ejection: at that level...sometimes when you fudge up that bad you just have to eat a lot of crow.  And the DTHC did not get personal so he didn't get tossed.

[lawump]

RIP Randy Harvey (the first base umpire)

 

[Lou B]

On 1/4/2023 at 11:29 AM, noumpere said:

I'd have serious reservations about even a t-ball umpire who called that.

A t-ball umpire, that made my day, I'm still laughing! 

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, lawump said:

Simply put, it was a missed call by U1 on a tag/no tag.  They didn't kick a rule in that they had not called the B/R out for retreating or being out of the baseline.  U1 just flat out missed a tag/no-tag.

To be clear - my thought all along was that SOMEONE had called a tag...either PU or U1 is going to be straight-lined there, so it's understandable for either of them to make this mistake.  From the video it had looked to me like U1 was pointing at PU, so I deduced PU made the call.   The question for me still stands...did U1 make an out call in any way that influenced how F3 behaved...or did F3 simply assume the BR was out regardless of what he did or did not hear from U1.   That, to me, has to be the determining factor in the final call on this play...did F3 give up on the tag on his own accord, or because the umpire influenced him to do so.   If U1 is first making the out call in the video when we see him point, long after F3 gave up and freed BR to advance to first, it's an easy safe call (to correct).

 

[The Man in Blue]

In fastpitch softball (at least all the codes I am familiar with), as @beerguy55 said, stepping backwards toward home plate to avoid being tagged is a dead ball out.  I cannot speak for slow pitch and this is NOT the case in the baseball codes I am familiar with.

 

Here is the argument that Mississippi State had: If there was no tag and that call was missed, that is fine.  The issue though is that the umpire called the runner out so the fielder stopped playing.  The runner did not attempt to advance back to first until after the fielder stopped.  Overturning this call is the equivalent of "unfouling" a ball.  You would need to ask yourself not just what the runner would have done but, "Absent the out call, what would the fielder have continued to do?"  I don't see any world or multiversal derivative where you can say the runner ever would have made it to first base without the fielder stopping due to the umpire's call.  

I think their argument is valid.  I think that you can come back and say "there was no tag" but I think you have to finish that with "but the runner would not have made it to first without the umpire error."  My opinion is you have to let the out stand.

[BigBlue4u]

On 1/5/2023 at 6:38 AM, lawump said:

Spoke with one of my close friends last night...who happens to be an SEC umpire.  We weren't talking because of this thread, but I brought it up.  He was well aware of this play/video as it has been shown and discussed numerous times on their staff.  He stated that U1 called the B/R out on the tag.  Obviously, there was no tag, but U1 thought there had been a tag.

Simply put, it was a missed call by U1 on a tag/no tag.  They didn't kick a rule in that they had not called the B/R out for retreating or being out of the baseline.  U1 just flat out missed a tag/no-tag.  It happens to the best of the best.  Tim Tschida, one of the best MLB umpires of his generation, called a runner out in the 1999 ALCS on a play in which the Yankees' middle infielder's tag attempt missed the runner by almost two feet.  Sometimes we get straight-lined and we lose all depth perception.  When you're in the magic spot ("magic" in a bad way) where you are perfectly straight-lined...you lose all depth perception and a two-foot gap between the fielder's glove and the runner's body appears to be a tag.  That is apparently what happened here.

And, as for the lack of the ejection: at that level...sometimes when you fudge up that bad you just have to eat a lot of crow.  And the DTHC did not get personal so he didn't get tossed.

 

[BigBlue4u]

lawump..

Thanks for taking the time to pass along the info.  Definitely a weird play.  I wonder if the MLO (Most Likely Outcome) would play into making a final decision?  Last inning, runners at 1st and 2nd, nobody out, down by two runs.  The batter could be bunting for a base hit, or most likely to sacrifice R1 & R2 into scoring position with one out.  If the umpires come to the last conclusion, the outcome would be the same:  sacrifice bunt, one out and runners at 2nd and 3rd.  A definite hats off to the crew for not ejecting someone.  Sometimes, you just have to stand there and take it.  And, while I am at it, would this possibly fall under the thought that changing a call would create further problems?