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Ten MLB umps retiring

flyingron

By flyingron
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Richvee
Richvee

I’m surprised someone with umpiring knowledge would fall for the unwarranted media driven criticism that drives the  ignorant public opinion of a professional umpire. 

lawump
lawump

Exactly.  Not that anyone asked, but here's my two cents (of course, I'm not GOD and I'm not even a moderator on any umpire forum...so this is just my opinion): Making a post that includes a "pot

UMP45
UMP45

You don't have enough dirt on your shoes to talk crap about Angel!

dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, 834k3r said:

giphy.gif

maybe this will help you figure it out (as of stats after the 2022 season) or see how the cookie crumbles so to speak (whatever/however it will be done, i.e. most games/most years as call up/ or maybe even most years in pro ball including starting in MiLB rookie ball which i am not including.

Mahrley              476 games. started call up status in 2017

Livensbarger    382, call up in 2017

Miller                 195, call up 2019

Tosi                   191, call up 2019

Bacon               149, call up 2019

all the rest started as call ups in 2020

Moscoso         332 games

Riggs               263

Beck               253

Ceja               253

Wills               250

Merzel           241

Valentine       235

Bacchus        234

Moore           156

Ramos          136

Vondrak       133

Navas          130

Tomlinson     92

Clemmons    73

Mackay        47

Arrieta          39

Rosenburg  39

Willliams     28

started call up in 2022

Ballou     30

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

UMP45

UMP45

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I just hope they all FAR outshine Angel.... 

You don't have enough dirt on your shoes to talk crap about Angel!

  • Like 4
UMP45

UMP45

Posted
Posted
On 1/3/2023 at 11:47 AM, ArchAngel72 said:

Its nice of you to stick up for me like that.

 

😏

If you start talking crap/ bashing another umpire expect it. We are a brotherhood. 

  • Like 2
beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, UMP45 said:

If you start talking crap/ bashing another umpire expect it. We are a brotherhood. 

And this is why umpires get bad reps.  If your "brotherhood" implies blind support of any or all who wear the blue, you're no different than the other boys in blue who protect their own regardless of the facts.   If you not only protect and support incompetent/belligerent umpires, but also attack anyone who dares to criticize them, you're part of the problem. 

I don't need to have a driver's license to know someone ran a stop sign.

UMP45

UMP45

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

And this is why umpires get bad reps.  If your "brotherhood" implies blind support of any or all who wear the blue, you're no different than the other boys in blue who protect their own regardless of the facts.   If you not only protect and support incompetent/belligerent umpires, but also attack anyone who dares to criticize them, you're part of the problem. 

I don't need to have a driver's license to know someone ran a stop sign.

You're a coach. Your opinion means d^%k to me.

  • Haha 1
Thunderheads

Thunderheads

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

And this is why umpires get bad reps.  If your "brotherhood" implies blind support of any or all who wear the blue, you're no different than the other boys in blue who protect their own regardless of the facts.   If you not only protect and support incompetent/belligerent umpires, but also attack anyone who dares to criticize them, you're part of the problem. 

I don't need to have a driver's license to know someone ran a stop sign.

 

8 hours ago, UMP45 said:

You're a coach. Your opinion means d^%k to me.

Ok guys, ... enough. Thanks in advance

lawump

lawump

Posted
Posted

When you finished in the top 5 of the computer ball/strike ratings too many seasons in your career to count...you're hardly the worst umpire in MLB.  And hardly deserving of ridicule as a horrible umpire.  Just a little fact that Hernandez haters never want to acknowledge.  Objectively speaking (objective in that we're using the same computer evaluation system to evaluate all MLB umpires), Angel is one of (if not "the") top balls-and-strikes umpire of his generation.  

Is Angel of 2022 as good as he once was?  No.  The fact is that all umpires' performance deteriorates as they age...just like players.  But, from 2001-2011 he was an elite umpire according to the computers.

  • Like 2
beerguy55

beerguy55

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, lawump said:

 

Is Angel of 2022 as good as he once was?  No.  The fact is that all umpires' performance deteriorates as they age...just like players.  But, from 2001-2011 he was an elite umpire according to the computers.

The issue is umpire pay is based on their age not their performance...as they age their performance declines and their salary increases.  (yes, there's something to be said for game management experience...which, btw, is really where Hernandez' shortcoming is - management, not experience - that also seems to get worse as he ages)

The only perceived element of meritocracy, related to pay, is the ability to make a few extra bucks in the playoffs.

Umpires whose performance declines compared to their own past production, and compared to other umpires, typically still get to leave on their own terms.  That is not the case for the vast majority of players.  They can't play as long as they want...and even future HOFers see significant pay cuts for their final years as their performance declines and their last bit of value is more in mentoring younger players, putting some bums in seats or selling a few more jerseys.

Has an MLB umpire ever been dismissed or forced into retirement due to a decrease in skill...the only ones I know of have been dismissed for some kind of rule infraction. (eg. Brian Runge)

Either cap the age, or come up with incentives to early retirement, if they're not going to actually incentivize performance.   Lot of really talented guys in the wings who will out perform many of the older guys with failing eyesight or less mobility...and there's only one way they'll get the experience everyone says they need.

ArchAngel72

ArchAngel72

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, lawump said:

When you finished in the top 5 of the computer ball/strike ratings too many seasons in your career to count...you're hardly the worst umpire in MLB.  And hardly deserving of ridicule as a horrible umpire.  Just a little fact that Hernandez haters never want to acknowledge.  Objectively speaking (objective in that we're using the same computer evaluation system to evaluate all MLB umpires), Angel is one of (if not "the") top balls-and-strikes umpire of his generation.  

Is Angel of 2022 as good as he once was?  No.  The fact is that all umpires' performance deteriorates as they age...just like players.  But, from 2001-2011 he was an elite umpire according to the computers.

 

And Sadly this is what proves where Unions over protect people.  IMHO   when someone degrades to the point of "Needing replacement"  Then they should recognize that and step down or there will be folks with pitchforks asking for them to. 

Was he once yes

Is he now, well no according to even MLB

https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/mlb-angel-hernandez-bad-umpire-lawsuit-discrimination-01gbvr93amv6

 

Quite frankly too  All I wanted to point out is I hope these 10 "New" umps do well. I want them to shine and be what we all strive to be.

Someone who calls that "perfect game" and is not even noticed by the fans, players, or broadcast.

 

Catch18

Catch18

Posted
Posted
When you finished in the top 5 of the computer ball/strike ratings too many seasons in your career to count...you're hardly the worst umpire in MLB.  And hardly deserving of ridicule as a horrible umpire.  Just a little fact that Hernandez haters never want to acknowledge.  Objectively speaking (objective in that we're using the same computer evaluation system to evaluate all MLB umpires), Angel is one of (if not "the") top balls-and-strikes umpire of his generation.  
Is Angel of 2022 as good as he once was?  No.  The fact is that all umpires' performance deteriorates as they age...just like players.  But, from 2001-2011 he was an elite umpire according to the computers.

Angle got a bad rap starting with the CLE/OAK game in which the 1st yr of review had that questionable HR off the green railing in CLE. A (now retired) MLB guy from our local association spoke to us abt replay & explained/described those first replay monitors - which were little more than a standard 17” computer monitor tucked away in some crap storage area past the dugout.

I’m not saying talent doesn’t ebb & flow over time, but a lot of Angel’s public perception got a crap start from that play. JMTC.
lawump

lawump

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

or come up with incentives to early retirement, 

They did.  Significantly.  That is why you had 10 retirements this year.  The rate of umpires retiring each year has gone up dramatically since the retirement benefits were significantly increased 10-years ago or so.

  • Thanks 1
Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted
On 12/30/2022 at 9:41 AM, ArchAngel72 said:

I just hope they all FAR outshine Angel.... 

I’m surprised someone with umpiring knowledge would fall for the unwarranted media driven criticism that drives the  ignorant public opinion of a professional umpire. 

  • Like 6
ArchAngel72

ArchAngel72

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Richvee said:

I’m surprised someone with umpiring knowledge would fall for the unwarranted media driven criticism that drives the  ignorant public opinion of a professional umpire. 

 

Well as pretty much a Little League Umpire with no real want to go higher. Also a Fan of baseball as well as a fan of Umpires.  I do feel the right to express my opinions of what I have observed.  I also do not believe the media is pushing this criticism as hard as they could.  I have seen far worse for less put it that way.

You want to call this a brotherhood. Then you need to look at what happened and what is happening to the brotherhood of cops.  They always "backed the blue" even when they shouldn't have and it was then and is now an issue.  The problem is getting better.  But when an organization hides and protects the "bad apples"  It can and will cause more issues down the road with that organization.  Its a toxic way to take care of things and breeds nothing but.

I admit I am no Angel. I have made calls I regret and I have made calls I would stand by the gates to heaven with my hand on the good book swearing they were correct.  But to not look back on those that I kicked and understand I need to correct that and do better.  That's where I believe the world see's Angel. Pretty sure the article I linked even stated that.

Anyway its a forum and I gave my 2 cents. You disagree OK.. 

Have a nice day 😉

Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted
On 1/6/2023 at 3:08 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Well as pretty much a Little League Umpire with no real want to go higher. Also a Fan of baseball as well as a fan of Umpires.  I do feel the right to express my opinions of what I have observed.  I also do not believe the media is pushing this criticism as hard as they could.  I have seen far worse for less put it that way.

You want to call this a brotherhood. Then you need to look at what happened and what is happening to the brotherhood of cops.  They always "backed the blue" even when they shouldn't have and it was then and is now an issue.  The problem is getting better.  But when an organization hides and protects the "bad apples"  It can and will cause more issues down the road with that organization.  Its a toxic way to take care of things and breeds nothing but.

I admit I am no Angel. I have made calls I regret and I have made calls I would stand by the gates to heaven with my hand on the good book swearing they were correct.  But to not look back on those that I kicked and understand I need to correct that and do better.  That's where I believe the world see's Angel. Pretty sure the article I linked even stated that.

Anyway its a forum and I gave my 2 cents. You disagree OK.. 

Have a nice day 😉

I don't think the level of umpiring is a factor. I only said I'm surprised someone with a good knowledge of the game could weigh all the facts and think Angel stinks. Or he's not a good umpire, or whatever other verbiage you want to use.

  It is 100% your right to have that opinion.   And I have every right to believe your opinion is shaped by the  media and ill informed social media groups/news/posts. 

That's all that's to it. 

  • Like 1
JSam21

JSam21

Posted
Posted
On 1/6/2023 at 2:08 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Well as pretty much a Little League Umpire with no real want to go higher. Also a Fan of baseball as well as a fan of Umpires.  I do feel the right to express my opinions of what I have observed.  I also do not believe the media is pushing this criticism as hard as they could.  I have seen far worse for less put it that way.

You want to call this a brotherhood. Then you need to look at what happened and what is happening to the brotherhood of cops.  They always "backed the blue" even when they shouldn't have and it was then and is now an issue.  The problem is getting better.  But when an organization hides and protects the "bad apples"  It can and will cause more issues down the road with that organization.  Its a toxic way to take care of things and breeds nothing but.

I admit I am no Angel. I have made calls I regret and I have made calls I would stand by the gates to heaven with my hand on the good book swearing they were correct.  But to not look back on those that I kicked and understand I need to correct that and do better.  That's where I believe the world see's Angel. Pretty sure the article I linked even stated that.

Anyway its a forum and I gave my 2 cents. You disagree OK.. 

Have a nice day 😉

Here is the main issue. When Angel came up into the game, he had a self admitted attitude problem. He rubbed players and coaches the wrong way. Well guess who are the analysist and talking heads now? That's right, those guys. So those guys have continued to hold a grudge. That has snow balled into "click bait journalists" and social media personalities piling on Angel at even the slightest hint of controversy. There are things that happen to MLB umpires everyday that go completely unnoticed, but if they happened to Angel it is all over every form of sports media. 

Let me give you an example. June 28th, 2019, Cardinals @ Padres. Does that game sound familiar to anyone? Probably not. So you are probably asking yourself, "JSam, why are you bringing that game up?" I bring this game up because the first base umpire, Vic Carapazza, had 4 calls (3 Force plays, 1 tag/pick off) overturned at first base. The only reason why I know of this, is because my wife and I happened to be at that game while on vacation. I did not see a single article about it. I didn't see a single post on social media about it. Everyone just went on with their lives. We all know what would happen if the same thing happened to Angel on a random Friday night in the middle of the season... 

So now... lets re-evaluate things. 

  • Like 2
Catch18

Catch18

Posted
Posted
I bring this game up because the first base umpire, Vic Carapazza, had 4 calls (3 Force plays, 1 tag/pick off) overturned at first base. The only reason why I know of this, is because my wife and I happened to be at that game while on vacation. I did not see a single article about it. I didn't see a single post on social media about it. Everyone just went on with their lives. We all know what would happen if the same thing happened to Angel on a random Friday night in the middle of the season... 

So now... lets re-evaluate things. 


This is a fantastic observation. Hernandez got crucified in NY for the same outcome, didn’t he?

Yeah, some might say it’s worse because it’s the playoffs, but so what, it’s the same difference.
  • Like 2
ousafe

ousafe

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, JSam21 said:

the first base umpire, Vic Carapazza, had 4 calls (3 Force plays

And what is this force play at first base of which you write?  🤣🤣

  • Haha 2
Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
On 1/5/2023 at 1:13 PM, beerguy55 said:

The issue is umpire pay is based on their age not their performance...as they age their performance declines and their salary increases.  (yes, there's something to be said for game management experience...which, btw, is really where Hernandez' shortcoming is - management, not experience - that also seems to get worse as he ages)

The only perceived element of meritocracy, related to pay, is the ability to make a few extra bucks in the playoffs.

Umpires whose performance declines compared to their own past production, and compared to other umpires, typically still get to leave on their own terms.  That is not the case for the vast majority of players.  They can't play as long as they want...and even future HOFers see significant pay cuts for their final years as their performance declines and their last bit of value is more in mentoring younger players, putting some bums in seats or selling a few more jerseys.

Has an MLB umpire ever been dismissed or forced into retirement due to a decrease in skill...the only ones I know of have been dismissed for some kind of rule infraction. (eg. Brian Runge)

Either cap the age, or come up with incentives to early retirement, if they're not going to actually incentivize performance.   Lot of really talented guys in the wings who will out perform many of the older guys with failing eyesight or less mobility...and there's only one way they'll get the experience everyone says they need.

What is "failing eyesight"? 

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