How to score a hit?

[Guest Softball Dad]

A batter hits the ball to the outfield, while running into third base they are struck with the ball due to a throwing error. The ball gets away from the third baseman and the runner then scored. How do you mark that in the book? Is it a triple and reached home on error or is it a in the park homer in? Thanks

[maven]

I've never understood why civilians think that umpires keep score.

[BLWizzRanger]

As a Softball Dad, assuming scoring with kids playing, give them the Triple + error.  In a beer league, that's a four base error. That should go over like a fart in church....   lol

[Senor Azul]

Was the batted ball the sole reason the batter-runner (BR) made it safely to third base? Or would the BR have been put out at third base with a good throw? As you describe it I would credit the BR with a triple and show the advance to the plate as a result of a wild throw (for example, E7T) to account for the run.

Here are the relevant high school softball scorekeeping rules--

2020 NFHS rule 9-3 ART. 3 . . . A base hit for extra bases is credited to the batter when it is the sole reason for safe arrival at second base (double), third base (triple) or home plate (home run).

9-5 ART. 5 . . . An error is charged against a fielder for each misplay that prolongs the time at bat of the batter; or prolongs the time a player continues to be a runner; or permits the runner to advance one or more bases. If it is impossible to assign an error to an individual player, then the team will be assessed with an error.

[Mussgrass]

5 hours ago, Guest Softball Dad said:

A batter hits the ball to the outfield, while running into third base they are struck with the ball due to a throwing error. The ball gets away from the third baseman and the runner then scored. How do you mark that in the book? Is it a triple and reached home on error or is it a in the park homer in? Thanks

Sounds like the batter gets a triple and advances to home on an E whoever threw the ball.

[Rich Ives]

5 hours ago, Guest Softball Dad said:

A batter hits the ball to the outfield, while running into third base they are struck with the ball due to a throwing error. The ball gets away from the third baseman and the runner then scored. How do you mark that in the book? Is it a triple and reached home on error or is it a in the park homer in? Thanks

Would the runner have made 3B safely if there was no error? Scorer decision.

If so it's a triple and an error. 

If the runner would have been out it's a double and an error.

[834k3r]

19 minutes ago, Mussgrass said:

Sounds like the batter gets a triple and advances to home on an E whoever threw the ball.

If it was me scoring it, I'd score it a double (the runner hadn't yet reached third) with an error on the outfielder.

[BLWizzRanger]

Cant assume he would have been out on the throw to third.  Missed tag, missed catch, swim move, ball jarred during slide....Give them the benefit of the Triple + error.

[834k3r]

13 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Cant assume he would have been out on the throw to third.  Missed tag, missed catch, swim move, ball jarred during slide....Give them the benefit of the Triple + error.

[maven]

I don't think the OP is asking how to score the play. The question is how to write it in the score book.

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, maven said:

I've never understood why civilians think that umpires keep score.

Well, the top of the Ask the Umpire page clearly says to ask anything about the rules...and scorekeeping is a section of the OBR and FED rule book.

This, as far as I know, is unique to baseball.  For example, the NHL rulebook doesn't define who gets goals or assists, or how to track shots on goal, or what goaltenders gets credit for the win.   I don't think football rulebooks have this.

6 hours ago, Guest Softball Dad said:

A batter hits the ball to the outfield, while running into third base they are struck with the ball due to a throwing error. The ball gets away from the third baseman and the runner then scored. How do you mark that in the book? Is it a triple and reached home on error or is it a in the park homer in? Thanks

It is NEVER a HR.  It's a throwing error for hitting the runner.  The bad throw is what allowed the runner to advance. 

Batter gets a triple, E9 (or whatever fielder), runner scores on error, no RBI.  Color in the little box.

58 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

If it was me scoring it, I'd score it a double (the runner hadn't yet reached third) with an error on the outfielder.

As a scorekeeper you need to be incredibly certain that a clean throw would have the runner out...if I'm scoring that typically means the runner still at least 20 feet away from the base as the  ball sails by, and even then I may still give the triple.   Even if the runner never advanced past third - the bad throw just ensured they got to third - you're typically going to give the runner a lot of latitude to call it a triple, rather than a double and an error.   This is different from a force play where a clear bad throw, or a clear drop by the third baseman, would be charged an error - on a tag play so much else can and will happen the benefit of the doubt is typically given to the runner, and the defense is rarely penalized with an error.  Provided they don't advance.

For example, you see this in MLB a lot...R2 trying to score on a single, and the outfielder makes a terrible throw to the plate and the runner easily scores...even when you can plainly see that a better throw would have got the runner this is never scored an error (as far as the runner is scoring is concerned)...there would only be an error charged if the throw allowed another runner to advance another base (eg. the batter/runner goes to second on the throw to the plate (no error)...but gets to third because the throw goes over the catcher's head - error)

 

EDIT: the bad throw that lets the runner get to third would, however, be tracked in the advanced metrics/WAR stats, and would go against that outfielder's Defensive Runs Saved metric.   That SH*# don't fit in the scorebook.

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Well, the top of the Ask the Umpire page clearly says to ask anything about the rules...and scorekeeping is a section of the OBR and FED rule book.

There used to be some crude advice given at umpire clinics/training about what to do with the score keeping pages in your rulebook. So it might not be a section in some Rulebooks😊

[Rich Ives]

42 minutes ago, maven said:

I don't think the OP is asking how to score the play. The question is how to write it in the score book.

Never before seen a book without a 1B 2B 3B etc. there to circle. How would you enter any hit/FC/E/HBP

in this book?

I'd write in 2B - E9 (whatever) and color in the box.

[BLWizzRanger]

I don't think the OP is asking how to score the play. The question is how to write it in the score book.

Well, there is his second question on scoring it a triple and error or homerun.

Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[Velho]

Added level of difficulty: This may end up being an earned run. You have to evaluate the inning as a whole to decide that.

[HokieUmp]

3 hours ago, maven said:

I don't think the OP is asking how to score the play. The question is how to write it in the score book.

 

This *feels* like a trap, but ..... with a pen?

[Senor Azul]

Cant assume he would have been out on the throw to third.  Missed tag, missed catch, swim move, ball jarred during slide....Give them the benefit of the Triple + error.

That is wrong! All one need do is to read the applicable scoring rule where it tells us to judge whether a good throw would have put the runner out. Check it out—rule 9.00 The Rules of Scoring--

2021 OBR 9.12(a)(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base;

Rule 9.05(a) Comment: In applying Rule 9.05(a), the Official Scorer shall always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. A safe course for the Official Scorer to follow is to score a hit when exceptionally good fielding of a ball fails to result in a putout.

From the book Baseball Scorekeeping by Andres Wirkmaa (pp. 149-150):  …It sets forth the principle that a scorer should always consider whether a good throw, in lieu of the wild (bad) throw at issue, would have brought about a different result before he or she charges an error on the wild (bad) throw.

In other words, an error is not to be automatically charged whenever a throw intended to put out a runner is wild/bad and the runner is safe. It must be clear that but for the throw being wild/bad, the runner would have been put out.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Cant assume he would have been out on the throw to third.  Missed tag, missed catch, swim move, ball jarred during slide....Give them the benefit of the Triple + error.

That is wrong! All one need do is to read the applicable scoring rule where it tells us to judge whether a good throw would have put the runner out. Check it out—rule 9.00 The Rules of Scoring--

2021 OBR 9.12(a)(5) whose wild throw permits a runner to reach a base safely, when in the scorer’s judgment a good throw would have put out the runner, unless such wild throw is made attempting to prevent a stolen base;

Rule 9.05(a) Comment: In applying Rule 9.05(a), the Official Scorer shall always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. A safe course for the Official Scorer to follow is to score a hit when exceptionally good fielding of a ball fails to result in a putout.

From the book Baseball Scorekeeping by Andres Wirkmaa (pp. 149-150):  …It sets forth the principle that a scorer should always consider whether a good throw, in lieu of the wild (bad) throw at issue, would have brought about a different result before he or she charges an error on the wild (bad) throw.

In other words, an error is not to be automatically charged whenever a throw intended to put out a runner is wild/bad and the runner is safe. It must be clear that but for the throw being wild/bad, the runner would have been put out.

It is "technically" wrong...practically speaking, you rarely, if ever, see it in those specific scenarios - eg. runner scoring from second on a single, runner trying to stretch single to double, double to triple...first to third on single, tag from third, etc - basically almost any throw from the outfield.   I can't recall a scenario where a MLB scorekeeper has given an error when a better (not perfect, simply better) would have easily retired the runner in those situations.   Unless a runner advances a base beyond the one they were going to, there isn't going to be an error scored.  At the level where the bar should be set the highest on expecting a quality throw from the outfield, seems to have the most forgiveness by scorekeepers.

Throws on forces and appeals, definitely...almost any throw by an infielder, tag or force, this standard is applied a little more stringently.

The stolen base language is interesting, because at one time going from first to third on a single, or second to home, or advancing on a fly ball, would be scored a stolen base.  So, I wonder if the mentality of applying/not applying errors on those plays has followed, even though they're not stolen bases any more.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, HokieUmp said:

This *feels* like a trap, but ..... with a pen?

pencil...or Gamechanger...scorekeeping with a pen is like trapeze without a net.

[HokieUmp]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:21 PM, beerguy55 said:

pencil...or Gamechanger...scorekeeping with a pen is like trapeze without a net.

Dude, my/our hobby is to go out and get screamed at by idiots.  Imma grab the F*#King gusto.