NFHS Game Ending Balk

[Guest John O]

This question came up in another forum

In a Florida Complex League game, played on Aug. 23rd, 2022 there was a walk-off balk called. It was not a “Ball Four” balk that followed with a pitch. The bases were loaded with two outs.  Following the balk, the runner from third scored the winning run.  The runner on second touched third base, but the runner on first ran home to celebrate and did not advance to the next base." -- On a walk-off balk, do all the runners need to advance and touch the next base before coming off the field?  Would there be an opportunity to appeal that?  Does the Dead Ball overrule it?

The rules interpreter said the run scored and the game was over in an OBR game.

Is the interpretation the same in an NFHS game?  I combed every book I have and cannot find beans.  I have often said that in NFHS games every base runner must touch every base every time but... suddenly, I'm not so sure about this one.

What do you folks got?

[Jimurray]

20 minutes ago, Guest John O said:

This question came up in another forum

In a Florida Complex League game, played on Aug. 23rd, 2022 there was a walk-off balk called. It was not a “Ball Four” balk that followed with a pitch. The bases were loaded with two outs.  Following the balk, the runner from third scored the winning run.  The runner on second touched third base, but the runner on first ran home to celebrate and did not advance to the next base." -- On a walk-off balk, do all the runners need to advance and touch the next base before coming off the field?  Would there be an opportunity to appeal that?  Does the Dead Ball overrule it?

The rules interpreter said the run scored and the game was over in an OBR game.

Is the interpretation the same in an NFHS game?  I combed every book I have and cannot find beans.  I have often said that in NFHS games every base runner must touch every base every time but... suddenly, I'm not so sure about this one.

What do you folks got?

I've got the same as OBR, nobody was forced and you only need R3 to touch.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Guest John O said:

This question came up in another forum

In a Florida Complex League game, played on Aug. 23rd, 2022 there was a walk-off balk called. It was not a “Ball Four” balk that followed with a pitch. The bases were loaded with two outs.  Following the balk, the runner from third scored the winning run.  The runner on second touched third base, but the runner on first ran home to celebrate and did not advance to the next base." -- On a walk-off balk, do all the runners need to advance and touch the next base before coming off the field?  Would there be an opportunity to appeal that?  Does the Dead Ball overrule it?

The rules interpreter said the run scored and the game was over in an OBR game.

Is the interpretation the same in an NFHS game?  I combed every book I have and cannot find beans.  I have often said that in NFHS games every base runner must touch every base every time but... suddenly, I'm not so sure about this one.

What do you folks got?

There's no force...even if you did call R1 out it would be a time play, no?

[Little Ott]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

There's no force...even if you did call R1 out it would be a time play, no?

That's the answer.  No force.  Appeal all you want but, it'll be too late.  Thanks fella's. 

[Senor Azul]

Why wouldn’t we just apply the following FED rules?

2020 NFHS rule 8-2 ART. 1 . . . An advancing runner shall touch first, second, third and then home plate in order, including awarded bases.

8-2 ART. 9 . . . Each runner shall touch his base after the ball becomes dead. All awarded bases must be touched in their proper order. The runner returns to the base he had reached or passed when the ball became dead. In the event of interference, a runner returns to the base he had legally reached at the time of the interference. If the interference does not cause the batter to be out and any other runner cannot return to the base last legally occupied at the time of the interference, he is advanced to the next base.

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  A runner is forced to accept the awarded base. (2016 BRD, section 32, p. 38)

From the 2016 BRD (section 508, p. 326):

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If the winning run is awarded home because the ball became dead, such as, but not limited to when a ball is thrown out of play, or when a batted ball is hit out of play for a home run, the game will not be over until all runners reach the bases they are awarded to.

[beerguy55]

13 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If the winning run is awarded home because the ball became dead, such as, but not limited to when a ball is thrown out of play, or when a batted ball is hit out of play for a home run, the game will not be over until all runners reach the bases they are awarded to

That's fine...the other runners are called out for not taking their next base...there's nothing in this interpretation that suggests they are to be treated like a forced runner - ie. it would be a time play

 

Case in point - Oct. 17, 1999 Robin Ventura hit a walk off grand slam that became a game winning single because he never got to second base.  There was 1 out when this happened, so, the game should not have been over until Ventura, and all other runners, crossed home plate...and since he didn't, and since R1 (and likely R2) didn't, if this was treated as a force (in OBR anyway) those outs would have nullified R3's, and even R2's, run.     Provided at least one of R1 or R2 touched the next base there wouldn't be enough force outs to nullify the run.

15 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  A runner is forced to accept the awarded base. (2016 BRD, section 32, p. 38)

And there's that word - so is that "dictionary" force or "baseball" force?   Going by the rulebook definition "A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners) loses his right to the base he occupies and is forced to advance because the batter becomes a batter-runner" I'd say it's "dictionary" force.   So, sounds like a time play to me.

 

I can't imagine the Ventura play being nullified in FED, simply because only one or two of the runners took their award.

[MadMax]

22 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

the game will not be over until all runners reach the bases they are awarded to.

(gesturing in @beerguy55 to this discussion)... 

Right, but to whit, there is no "time imperative" on this, especially and specifically because the ball is Dead. 

Of course, a Ball-4 Walk (BB) is a Live-ball award. So, if we have bases loaded, and Ball 4 called to the batter, and R3 touches Home for the game-ending winning run, then not only does BR have to touch 1B, but so do R1 and R2 have to touch their advance, awarded bases. Got that. No issue. 

However, calls such as "Balk", or "Time!" for HBP or "Time" for a Wild Pitch becoming lodged or OOP result in dead ball awards. There is no time clock here! We (umpires) cannot be expected and demanded to remain, lingering about so as to observe and rule upon R1's touch of 2B and R2's touch of 3B and (this part is critical) call R1 or R2 out for this mythical "abandonment" ... during the Dead-ball!!! 

So say we have R1 and R3, 2 Outs. Game tied, Home team up. Bottom of the 7th (NFHS). R1 makes a steal attempt TOP and a Balk is called (or, alternatively, it's a HBP, but we'll get to that if we need to). During his steal attempt, R1 hyperextends his knee (or pops his Achilles heel) and down he goes, halfway. He is unable to get up. R3 is awarded Home, touches it, and scores the winning run. Are we (umpires) to stay, observe, and make sure R1 touches 2B??!! _If_ we are (supposed) to do so, then you must concede that there is no stopwatch or time keeping here! If the medical staff comes out, and has to put the injured R1 on a golf cart and tote him off, completely absent him physically touching 2B. So, are we calling him Out for abandonment?! Doesn't the offense have the right to substitute for him, and have that substitute go touch 2B, thus validating the scoring run? 

Yeah, yeah, tell me all you want "But he's not forced in your play, there! Time play, Max! Time play!"... Sure, okay, then make it that it's a HBP instead, thereby he's now Forced. Sure, whichever. 

My point is, we gotta stop with this "Abandonment" bullish!t, and calling kids out because they're celebrating and running down for a dogpile, and we got our pedantic dander up. It's a Dead ball. If we afford the offense the latitude to attend to an injury or incapacitation (during that Dead ball), then where R1 goes, or what he does – celebrate, puke, pi$$, go get a shot of epinephrine in the dugout because he was stung by a wasp at 1B – or how long he takes, is irrelevant.