Conflicting calls by umpires in Little League game

[McMike]

Good morning.  So, the the Little League game with Bend last night, where the PU overruled the field ump on the foul ball call, is that the correct call?

I sorta thought if one umpire signals the ball dead, the ball is dead - the umpires can decide later to reverse the call, and award bases as they see fit, but it seems like they decided to pretend the dead ball signal was never given, and allow the play to continue.  So, the team who noticed the PU are granted the advantage (in this case winning advantage), and the team who stopped playing on the foul ball call are penalized.

I mean, you are standing next to a field ump and he signals dead ball... are you supposed to scan all the other umps before stopping play, just in case another ump is giving a different signal?

Seems to me this was a clear case for a "do over", with awarded bases if appropriate?  Not a time for the grown ups to tell a 12 year old he needs to stop paying attention to the field ump?

https://www.bendbulletin.com/sports/bend-norths-bid-for-the-little-league-world-series-ends-in-controversy-with-a-3/article_ca868402-19ed-11ed-ab58-ab8018e22b6e.html

[Thunderheads]

40 minutes ago, McMike said:

Good morning.  So, the the Little League game with Bend last night, where the PU overruled the field ump on the foul ball call, is that the correct call?

 

How do you know there were conflicting calls?

[McMike]

4 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

How do you know there were conflicting calls?

My understanding is that the field ump signaled foul ball and dead ball, so the 3B (and the rest of the defense) stopped playing.  However, the PU signaled fair, and the 3B coach saw this, and waved his runner home.

[Vegas_Ump]

I saw the play live.  The bounding ball broke the pane of glass right over the bag.  It was a fair ball.  That's what the PU called--but it was NOT his call!  U3 called it foul.  Material happens!

Only Angel Hernandez can un-foul a ball.

Was justice  served?  Yeah, I guess so.  But that's a blown call that they better just eat!  Because everybody went relaxed when U3 called it foul.

Mike

Las Vegas

[Thunderheads]

1 minute ago, Vegas_Ump said:

I saw the play live.  The bounding ball broke the pane of glass right over the bag.  It was a fair ball.  That's what the PU called--but it was NOT his call!  U3 called it foul.  Material happens!

Only Angel Hernandez can un-foul a ball.

Was justice  served?  Yeah, I guess so.  But that's  blown call that they better just eat!  Because everybody went relaxed when U3 called it foul.

Mike

Las Vegas

Ok, that's what I was trying to figure out ... did PU call it 'fair' ... ok, he did.  I get it.

Well, ...if he hadn't called it fair, I'm sure there would have been a review anyhow.  Same outcome? Who knows

[McMike]

1 minute ago, Vegas_Ump said:

I saw the play live.  The bounding ball broke the pane of glass right over the bag.  It was a fair ball.  That's what the PU called--but it was NOT his call!  U3 called it foul.  Material happens!

Only Angel Hernandez can un-foul a ball.

Was justice  served?  Yeah, I guess so.  But that's  blown call that they better just eat!  Because everybody went relaxed when U3 called it foul.

Mike

Las Vegas

I am no expert on the rules, but I thought that central to this is if any ump calls a ball dead, the ball is dead.  They can fix it later with awards, but they cannot act as if the ball was still live.  Am I mistaken?

[McMike]

2 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

Ok, that's what I was trying to figure out ... did PU call it 'fair' ... ok, he did.  I get it.

Well, ...if he hadn't called it fair, I'm sure there would have been a review anyhow.  Same outcome? Who knows

Same outcome perhaps, but process matters right?

There's a difference between:

(a) ball was dead, review says fair, so we award home to runner on 2B

and (b) you win because you ignored the field umpire and the defense did not.

[Vegas_Ump]

1 minute ago, Thunderheads said:

Ok, that's what I was trying to figure out ... did PU call it 'fair' ... ok, he did.  I get it.

Well, ...if he hadn't called it fair, I'm sure there would have been a review anyhow.  Same outcome? Who knows

Jeff, I am trying to figure out how you un-foul a call.  As they often do in the NFL, they can call it fair, let the play complete, and then change it on replay.  But it really looks bizarre the other way around.  Once it's called foul, the ball is dead and no runs can score.

Either way, it looks bad.

Mike

[ArchAngel72]

7 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Jeff, I am trying to figure out how you un-foul a call.  As they often do in the NFL, they can call it fair, let the play complete, and then change it on replay.  But it really looks bizarre the other way around.  Once it's called foul, the ball is dead and no runs can score.

Either way, it looks bad.

Mike

 

Agree once 3BU called Foul that's it ... leave it foul...

If it was not the PU's call get together and agree to leave it foul and move on .. Yeah 3BU blew it but PU did to calling it when it was not his to call.. 

To be honest though if 3BU was near the ball and had to bail he should have left it to the PU to call.. I dunno without seeing it, its hard to say.. 

Just glad I was not part of that 

[McMike]

Good video of the play in this link:

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article264439211.html

Look at the third baseman, he's standing right next to the ump, and he does exactly what he is supposed to do.

Umpires make mistakes of course, sometimes decisive, but I do not understand how this resulted in the run being allowed to stand, on review no less.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, McMike said:

Good video of the play in this link:

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article264439211.html

Look at the third baseman, he's standing right next to the ump, and he does exactly what he is supposed to do.

Umpires make mistakes of course, sometimes decisive, but I do not understand how this resulted in the run being allowed to stand, on review no less.

It looks like U3 was pressured and did not have a good angle. The PU might have seen that and ruled fair, which it could be, some part of the bounding ball passing over the bag, and then U3 guessed at a foul ball. They probably judged that F5 and F7 would not have retrieved the base hit into the corner and applied 9.04(c). I think they judged correctly with that base hit into the corner.

[ArchAngel72]

After seeing the video the U3 was pushed off the line and he should have given the call to the PU 

 

My 2 cents

 

If I were the defensive coach I would have protested the game on that blunder. 

 

All I can say is ouch and glad I was not there for that one.. 

 

[humanbackstop19]

This is a bounding ball, not a fly ball or line drive landing past the location of the fielders or base. In NCAA and MLB, this is NOT subject to video review.  Why LL would qualify it for review is absurd.  With that, it is a judgment call, which should be U3's call all the way.  Right or wrong, in his judgement, the ball was foul - play over!.  4-umpire mechanics, this is U3's call, which should supersede any provision in the rules that the UIC can overrule them.  WHY did LL allow the PU, who made a call on the field which was not his, be overturned by less than irrefutable proof on a judgement call by the proper umpire?  Fair or foul is not the debate, it's the process of overruling a correct calling umpire.  U3's mistake is he did not sell the call and after continued officiating the play.  

[ArchAngel72]

1 minute ago, humanbackstop19 said:

This is a bounding ball, not a fly ball or line drive landing past the location of the fielders or base. In NCAA and MLB, this is NOT subject to video review.  Why LL would qualify it for review is absurd.  With that, it is a judgment call, which should be U3's call all the way.  Right or wrong, in his judgement, the ball was foul - play over!.  4-umpire mechanics, this is U3's call, which should supersede any provision in the rules that the UIC can overrule them.  WHY did LL allow the PU, who made a call on the field which was not his, be overturned by less than irrefutable proof on a judgement call by the proper umpire?  Fair or foul is not the debate, it's the process of overruling a correct calling umpire.  U3's mistake is he did not sell the call and after continued officiating the play.  

Its his call unless he is forced to vacate his position due to incoming balls.  Then it would go to PU

 

Least that's how we do it in 4. Or 6 man than it would go to the guy at LF.

 

But I agree it should not have been reviewed and once called foul it should have been played that way

[Senor Azul]

From the 2022 LL Rules Instruction Manual--

RULE 2 .00 – DEFINITION OF TERMS

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

INSTRUCTOR'S COMMENTS:

If a batted ball is inadvertently called “foul”, and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead. However, if a batted ball is in flight when it is prematurely ruled foul, it remains live as it could still be caught for an out and the ball will remain live and in play.

However, the following rule might have been considered the right way to go—

9.04(c) If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in the best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

This situation is normally the result of a breakdown in communication or mechanics which results in multiple umpires rendering different judgement calls on a single play. The umpiring crew should come together apart from any managers or players and review the situation. From this discussion, the Umpire in Chief will render the call that “Is most likely correct”. This is NOT an umpire’s decision being overruled but is simply the proper application of this rule.

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2022 LL Rules Instruction Manual--

RULE 2 .00 – DEFINITION OF TERMS

A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that settles on foul territory between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory, or that first falls on foul territory beyond first or third base, or that while on or over foul territory, touches the person of an umpire or player, or any object foreign to the natural ground.

INSTRUCTOR'S COMMENTS:

If a batted ball is inadvertently called “foul”, and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead. However, if a batted ball is in flight when it is prematurely ruled foul, it remains live as it could still be caught for an out and the ball will remain live and in play.

However, the following rule might have been considered the right way to go—

9.04(c) If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in the best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

This situation is normally the result of a breakdown in communication or mechanics which results in multiple umpires rendering different judgement calls on a single play. The umpiring crew should come together apart from any managers or players and review the situation. From this discussion, the Umpire in Chief will render the call that “Is most likely correct”. This is NOT an umpire’s decision being overruled but is simply the proper application of this rule.

9.04(c) would apply but what was the review about? Do you have what LL allows to be reviewed?

[Mudisfun]

So a couple things I see/saw watching this and some supposition:

I bet in the pregame with the crew, this conversation occurred: If you get blown off the line, PU will take all fair/foul calls... The moment, U3 had to jump out of the way, at least the way we work our 4 man mechanics locally, this call becomes the PU's. When watching live, my first thought was the hands up was him just "o'Le"ing out of the way, but then after seeing it again, obviously that was not the case. 

U3 if calling this foul should have been BIG!!! FOUL, FOUL, FOUL!!!! Pointing foul and killing all play. His half hearted foul call contributed to the breakdown.

We all know what the book says on a fair ball inadvertently called foul, but then there is also what WR and WP say when working the tournament. Since the PU was able to go to replay, the ruling most likely came straight from WP. Since they have replay, they most likely based the base award (score) on the location of the ball, the location of the fielder and the position of the runner(s).

Protesting a call administered by WP already is going to go nowhere... they ruled on the play.

I give huge kudos to the losing manager. You could tell he wanted nothing more than to lace into the crew... but recalled he was on national TV and took the high road. We will see how long that lasts when he gets home and the interviews start.

[834k3r]

14 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

We all know what the book says on a fair ball inadvertently called foul, but then there is also what WR and WP say when working the tournament. Since the PU was able to go to replay, the ruling most likely came straight from WP. Since they have replay, they most likely based the base award (score) on the location of the ball, the location of the fielder and the position of the runner(s).

I was just discussing this with our District UIC and he thought it was pretty clear the umpire crew didn't anticipate how WR/WP would rule on the replay.

I really feel for that game's crew, especially U3.

[Velho]

16 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

U3 if calling this foul should have been BIG!!! FOUL, FOUL, FOUL!!!! Pointing foul and killing all play. His half hearted foul call contributed to the breakdown.

Agreed.

I went back and watched the entire sequence. That clip has all the video there is. It never shows the mechanics PU used to call it fair.

Even if called fair, which it likely was, there is high likelihood that R2 scores.

I feel for the guys.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

9.04(c) would apply but what was the review about? Do you have what LL allows to be reviewed?

Maybe they looked at whether the 'foul' signal made a difference? i.e. was R2 going to score given the nature of the hit if 'foul' hadn't been called?

[McMike]

Thanks everyone, lots of interesting and informative discussion.

My key question remains though (perhaps only the umpire crew and LL brass have the answer).  What were the steps in the ruling?

Either:

(A) The base runner ignored the 3U's foul call and ran to home anyway.  On review, he got to stay at home base because that's where he ended up.  He is rewarded for ignoring the foul call when everyone else stopped playing.

Or...

(B) The ball was indeed dead the moment it was called.  But on review, that was reversed, and then the umpire determined that the runner would most likely have scored (because the left fielder was picking his nose or whatever).  So the runner was awarded home base on their judgment.  Not because that's where he ended up on a dead play, but because they think that's where he would have ended up.  The award would be the same even if the runner sat down in the basepath and tied his shoes instead.

The media has been describing it as A.  And also, this sentence "Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made" could be interpreted to mean that.

But I thought B should apply.  Dead ball, then a bases awarded on judgment.

The end result is the same, but the open question raised by A is: is there an incentive to ignore dead ball calls?

[buckyswider]

just a point of clarity- on the pitch we had R1, not R2.  So in the case of (B), it would have to be (IMO) overwhelming evidence that F7 didn't ever give up on the play after U3's signal.  

[Recontra]

Such a tough play for BU on the line to call, even harder when it's a line drive curling toward your head. Everyone will tell you post-game that you should just move inside on this ball, because it's going to curve towards foul territory, but that's so tough to do--move into the oncoming ball. A couple times every season, I can't make my body do that and end up abandoning the line.

Here, the PU was farther off the line than U3 when the ball got to 3rd, and U3 still may have had the best look. But I also agree that this is a situation that needs to be both pre-gamed and executed unequivocally. If U3 has to abandon the line and let PU make the fair/foul call, then he and PU have got to make eye contact, PU has got to come in big thumping his chest "Partner, I got it!" and then emphatically make the call. PU is taking U3's primary call (fair/foul call on batted ball that goes beyond 3rd base). That didn't happen. Neither one of them were on the line, and PU was further off of it than U3. I'd still like an explanation as to how the video reviewers determined that they were going to declare the ball was fair after one of them signalled it foul, and award R-1 three bases. R-1 wouldn't necessarily have scored, he may even have held up at 2nd.

Other than that play, it was a remarkably well-called game by the crew, including U3 and PU. And that deserves repeating. It was a remarkably well-called game by the crew, including U3 and PU. PU was solid. I feel so bad for all of them, Bend North as well as the crew, especially U3.

[aaluck]

I agree and understand all of the above but I am still confused on how you make a foul ball fair.  Good, bad, or ugly call, its foul and remains foul.  How do we have folks advancing and scoring on a dead ball?

 

Can someone explain that?

[aaluck]

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

If a batted ball is inadvertently called “foul”, and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead.

Great find but how would 9.04(c) change the above.  Irrevocably means cannot be changed.

/ˌi(r)ˈrevəkəblē/

Learn to pronounce

 

adverb

 

1. in a way that cannot be changed, reversed, or recovered.

   "my life changed irrevocably in an instant"