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TWO BASES?


Guest Poppa Up
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Guest Poppa Up

Hello, 

A little bit of an unusual play occurred where  a fly ball was caught by F8,   meanwhile...  R1 was heading back to 1B for the tag up  when the ball was thrown from F8 into the dugout; out of play.

The umpire  awarded R1  two bases to 3B.     The coach argued  that the runner had not tagged up when the ball was thrown and therefore should only be entitled to 2B.  which is correct?

 

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17 minutes ago, Guest Poppa Up said:

Hello, 

A little bit of an unusual play occurred where  a fly ball was caught by F8,   meanwhile...  R1 was heading back to 1B for the tag up  when the ball was thrown from F8 into the dugout; out of play.

The umpire  awarded R1  two bases to 3B.     The coach argued  that the runner had not tagged up when the ball was thrown and therefore should only be entitled to 2B.  which is correct?

 

Umpire was correct. Any throw by an outfielder that goes out of play is 2 bases from where the runner was at the time of release of the throw.

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It is a two base award, awarded from the last base touched when the ball was released.  3rd base is the correct award.  It doesn't matter which direction the runner was going. 

The runner IS obligated to retouch first base before advancing though.  If he does not, he would be called out on a proper appeal.

So, I guess the coach was right that first base was the correct starting point.  He just didn't have the award correct.  I think the reason coaches (and some umpires) get this wrong is because it usually happens when the runner is advancing, so it seems like a "+1".  It is not "the base he is going to plus one."  It is two bases from the last base touched.

 

OBR

5.06 Running the Bases

(b) Advancing Bases

(4)  Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance:

(G)  Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;

 

NFHS

RULE 8 BATTER-RUNNER AND RUNNER

SECTION 4 Runners entitled to advance

ART. 3 . . . A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:

e. the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked by the defense. PENALTY: (Art. 3e) All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the positions of the runners when the ball left the fielder's hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner.

Edit: My error ... posted NFHS Softball.

 

 

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And R1 still has to tag up, even during the dead ball, or be liable to be out on appeal.

If playing under FED rules, which allows a dead-ball appeal, R1 must be afforded the opportunity to complete his base-running responsibilities before we rule on the appeal. If he fails to retouch and gets all the way to 3B and stops, I'd rule on an appeal at that point.

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40 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is a two base award, awarded from the last base touched when the ball was released.  3rd base is the correct award.  It doesn't matter which direction the runner was going. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's not the last base touched. It's the position of the runner at TOT. 

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High school baseball rule 8-3-5 tells us that the base award in the OP scenario is from the base occupied at the time of pitch. The high school rule cited earlier is actually a softball rule citation—the baseball rule telling us how many bases are awarded is 8-3-3c-2 (it’s 2 bases)--

2019 NFHS rule 8-3

ART. 5 . . . An award is from the base determined as follows:

…When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch.

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27 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

High school baseball rule 8-3-5 tells us that the base award in the OP scenario is from the base determined at the time of pitch. The high school rule cited earlier is actually a softball rule citation—the baseball rule telling us how many bases are awarded is 8-3-3c-2 (it’s 2 bases)--

2019 NFHS rule 8-3

ART. 5 . . . An award is from the base determined as follows:

…When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch.

I think OBR also rules this way in the MLBUM calling it the original base. My hazy memory is of an interp that would award a runner who was running on the pitch, being between 2B and 3B, home plate and if he retouched 1B changing the award to 3B. I can’t find that interp anymore. 

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5 hours ago, Guest Poppa Up said:

Hello, 

A little bit of an unusual play occurred where  a fly ball was caught by F8,   meanwhile...  R1 was heading back to 1B for the tag up  when the ball was thrown from F8 into the dugout; out of play.

The umpire  awarded R1  two bases to 3B.     The coach argued  that the runner had not tagged up when the ball was thrown and therefore should only be entitled to 2B.  which is correct?

 

The award is "two bases" not "the base you are going to plus one"

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19 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I think OBR also rules this way in the MLBUM calling it the original base. My hazy memory is of an interp that would award a runner who was running on the pitch, being between 2B and 3B, home plate and if he retouched 1B changing the award to 3B. I can’t find that interp anymore. 

I recall this interp as well. 
Could it have been in the BRD?

 

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Whoops ... thank you @Senor Azul!  I pulled up my Kindle app and didn't double check which book I had open last.

To expand @Senor Azul's citation ... the rule itself is clunky.  I would take the part about the throw out of that exposition at the bottom and turn it into a part (c.) ...

ART. 5 . . . An award is from the base determined as follows:

a. If the award is the penalty for an infraction such as a balk, use of detached player equipment, or an illegal glove/mitt, the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.

b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw.

 

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21 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It's not the last base touched. It's the position of the runner at TOT. 

 

22 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is a two base award, awarded from the last base touched when the ball was released.  3rd base is the correct award.  It doesn't matter which direction the runner was going. 

 

Tomato tomato potato potato.  You aren't going to award a half-way point.

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8 minutes ago, Matt said:

That's not what the issue is. The key word is "touched." The runner's position at TOT is not necessarily the same as the last base they touched.

Then the issue is that you only half-read what was posted because that is not what I said.  Let's try again ...

22 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is a two base award, awarded from the last base touched when the ball was released.  3rd base is the correct award.  It doesn't matter which direction the runner was going.

 

Sometimes it feels like we argue just to argue.

 

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8 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Then the issue is that you only half-read what was posted because that is not what I said.  Let's try again ...

No, the issue is you're still not getting that "touched" is not the operative word and is not the same as TOT. You said what you said--I did not half-read it.

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47 minutes ago, Matt said:

That's not what the issue is. The key word is "touched." The runner's position at TOT is not necessarily the same as the last base they touched.

So R1 thinks it's 2 out and is between 2B and 3B when the ball is caught and released, then goes into dead ball territory. Are you awarding HP?

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10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

So R1 thinks it's 2 out and is between 2B and 3B when the ball is caught and released, then goes into dead ball territory. Are you awarding HP?

<OBR>Yep. And, if they go and correct it (of which the issue is legal acquisition of a base,) then the award then becomes 3B. (Wendlestedt footnote 317.)

Here's why touching is not operative: if (somehow) R1's miscue was not in leaving early, but in missing 2B, the award is HP, correct? It is not "the last base touched when the ball was released," as someone else here erroneously reiterates, because then we would award 3B, no matter where they were on the field at TOT.

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@Matt, ^THAT would have been more helpful than your usual terse responses to my posts.  ^THAT actually explains what you are saying I overlooked (which I appreciate).

With that in mind, the runner is presumed to have touched a base once they pass it.  We don't call them out for missing, we call them out on appeal.  If you want to split that hair, I'll agree you aren't wrong.  However, the initial award still is from the last (presumed) touched base.

If you see the runner miss the base, you don't shorten your award based on that.  The runner is presumed to have touched the base ... until the appeal or the runner makes the correction.  Same concept.   

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

<OBR>Yep. And, if they go and correct it (of which the issue is legal acquisition of a base,) then the award then becomes 3B. (Wendlestedt footnote 317.)

Here's why touching is not operative: if (somehow) R1's miscue was not in leaving early, but in missing 2B, the award is HP, correct? It is not "the last base touched when the ball was released," as someone else here erroneously reiterates, because then we would award 3B, no matter where they were on the field at TOT.

Yes HP to start with. My using a tag up was not a good example. But I'm wondering if that interp is still valid. I looked thru my 2017 and 2013 MLBUMs and can't find it but it is in a 2011 PBUC. Interps do change depending on who's in charge as we saw with order of appeals. What year is your Wendelstedt?

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23 hours ago, Matt said:

That's not what the issue is. The key word is "touched." The runner's position at TOT is not necessarily the same as the last base they touched.

Just to ensure clarity (and look like a tool in the process), we're using TOT/TOP interchangeably in this thread, correct? Because the rule as I know it is 2 bases from time of pitch.

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1 minute ago, Matt said:

No. For the purposes of the plays in this thread, the award is 2 bases TOT.

So @themaninblue's citation of Rule 5b is for a different play? Not trying to be difficult, but I'm confused.

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Just now, 834k3r said:

So @themaninblue's citation of Rule 5b is for a different play? Not trying to be difficult, but I'm confused.

He cited the whole of 8-3-5. The relevant part for what we're discussing is the last line, which governs throws by an outfielder. 

I believe the reasoning for citing all of it, aside from ensuring completeness, was to highlight how confusingly that rule is written and highlight the mental flow chart someone has to use to extract the proper portion to apply.

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Just now, Matt said:

He cited the whole of 8-3-5. The relevant part for what we're discussing is the last line, which governs throws by an outfielder. 

I believe the reasoning for citing all of it, aside from ensuring completeness, was to highlight how confusingly that rule is written and highlight the mental flow chart someone has to use to extract the proper portion to apply.

Got it--thanks.

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A little bit of an unusual play occurred where a fly ball was caught by F8, meanwhile... R1 was heading back to 1B for the tag up when the ball was thrown from F8 into the dugout; out of play.

Mr. Matt, just to be sure we are talking about the same play I copied the play from the OP here. R1 is trying to return to his original base after a fly ball has been caught. Before he can get there the ball is thrown out of play by the outfielder (F8). For high school rules the base award is made from the original base from the time of pitch as stated in rule 8-3-5.

ART. 5 . . . An award is from the base determined as follows:

 …When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch.

You’re insisting that the award is TOT as is stated in the last sentence of the rule. You’re telling us to ignore the first sentence of that paragraph that I have now posted twice. Why? Just to be complete here are the relevant OBR and NCAA rules--

2021 OBR Rule 5.06(b)(4)(I) Comment: The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases. For example: Batter hits a ground ball which an infielder throws into the stands but the batter-runner missed first base. He may be called out on appeal for missing first base after the ball is put in play even though he was “awarded” second base. If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

2021-2022 NCAA rule 8-6a-3 Note 3: If the runner is attempting to return to his original base after a fly ball that is caught and the ball is thrown out of play, the runner may retouch and the award is made from his original base.

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