Why balks are dead in FED

[Richvee]

Umpiring the semis and final of a tourney yesterday. Perfect game has some convoluted rules....Basically FED, with the typical batting order and sub usage amendments. But Prefect Game pithing rules are "MLB pitching rules, so balks are live, but fake to third is legal" 

So, onto the game. R1, first pitch to next batter F1 blows through the stop. I call "balk" from "B", batter fouls off the pitch. I send R1 to second, DHC asks my HP umpire "what's the count" He says "no count"  DHC- "But balks are live" PU - "oh yeah, 0-1" ....Oh boy, time for me to get involved. 

I walk to my partner and say "there's no count, the balk nullifies the pitch unless all runners and the batter runner reach base. " PU- "damn, Oh yeah, OK, 0-0"

Well of course now here comes the DHC and he's genuinely perplexed. he says.. "Now wait a minute, that's what I though until yesterday, the same thing happened to my team at bat, and the umpire said "No it's strike one because balks are live." The coach went on to say "He told me if the guy hit a double to left field and all runners scored you would count it, so we count the strike as well with live ball balks"  

I did my best to explain the concept of batter and all runners must advance at least one base in order to nullify the balk and "count" the  pitch, but I could see it was twisting his mind. .He had that "I have no idea what you just said" look in his eyes. He left me with a "well you're wrong "  comment and turned back to the dugout. I told him politely read the rule when you get a chance and the ballgame continued with the correct 0-0 count and no further issues. 

If that's not enough, next inning, the OHC is in 1B coaching box and askes what did he want on that balk call. I told him he wanted the pitch to count and enforce the balk. to which the OHC replies, "Geeze, everyone knows it's coaches choice, the balk or the play".   

[Mudisfun]

Sadly, I think you hit this somewhat on the head.
 

I'm lucky living where I do as we can and do play all year and as we know, some times enforcing balks can be a little nutty.

Balk, ball 4... where in the runner at time of pitch? Is this a walk or are we enforcing a balk?
HBP, where is the runner at time of pitch? Same as above.
Balk, R3 and B/R crushes one but it is caught, R3 scores on the tag up (I know this one is easier, but some have a hard time with it).

What are many of you doing in mid January/February? Making snowmen, playing hockey, shoveling driveways... Here in So Cal, we're calling balls and strikes. Take that umpire who only officiates in climates which limit their time on the field and I think FED just wants to take all of the guess work out of this part of the game.

And for all the umpires I know who complain about the FED version and then blow it when they have an OBRish version to enforce... either learn the rule or be happy it is one less thing for us to mess up.

Lastly, in reference to the tournaments which use 1/2 of one rule set, 1/4 of another and 1/4 of some other... You are KILLING us! Make up your mind so that we can consistently officiate these games!

[The Man in Blue]

On 8/3/2022 at 4:31 PM, Richvee said:

I did my best to explain the concept of batter and all runners must advance at least one base in order to nullify the balk and "count" the  pitch, but I could see it was twisting his mind.

 

At least he didn't say "But YOU DID advance the runner one base!"  😜

[Richvee]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

At least he didn't say "But YOU DID advance the runner one base!"  😜

Nope. After I got the “ deer in the headlights” stare. I can see he just wasn’t  comprehending it. He just said “ well you’re wrong”  and walked back to the dugout. I was going to get snarky and tell him to read the rulebook, but thought better if it. Unfortunately the impression he gave me was he probably wouldn’t understand the rule real well even after reading it. 

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Nope. After I got the “ deer in the headlights” stare. I can see he just wasn’t  comprehending it. He just said “ well you’re wrong”  and walked back to the dugout. I was going to get snarky and tell him to read the rulebook, but thought better if it. Unfortunately the impression he gave me was he probably wouldn’t understand the rule real well even after reading it. 

The rule could be puzzling to some until they read "Calling "Time" After A Balk" in the MLBUM/MiLBUM pubs or are trained using that info. But even I have had responses such as "That's too complicated, why don't they just give coach choice".

[johnnyg08]

On 8/6/2022 at 10:35 PM, Mudisfun said:

Lastly, in reference to the tournaments which use 1/2 of one rule set, 1/4 of another and 1/4 of some other... You are KILLING us! Make up your mind so that we can consistently officiate these games!

Yep...they simply don't really know what they're doing. That's the biggest problem. 

There was a time in my area that regular season American Legion tried to simplify things by saying we're going to play "high school offense" and "legion defense" 

Looks good on paper. Also, let's not a debate about why they don't just play straight legion.  

[Velho]

On 8/12/2022 at 5:42 AM, johnnyg08 said:

There was a time in my area that regular season American Legion tried to simplify things by saying we're going to play "high school offense" and "legion defense"

Is that a variation of 'heads I win, tails you lose'?  

[The Man in Blue]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:42 AM, johnnyg08 said:

There was a time in my area that regular season American Legion tried to simplify things by saying we're going to play "high school offense" and "legion defense" 

What could possibly go wrong (or be more complicated) by using different sets of rules for each team?

I mean, if one set of rules is good, two has be twice as nice.  Right?

[johnnyg08]

16 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

What could possibly go wrong (or be more complicated) by using different sets of rules for each team?

I mean, if one set of rules is good, two has be twice as nice.  Right?

Yeah...it was a mess, mainly because they had no idea what they were agreeing to. 

[ilyazhito]

A basic summary of live ball balks is: Umpire(s) will signal and call out a balk, but wait for play to end before enforcing it. If there is no batted ball, and all runners advance at least one base, the balk is ignored. If there is a batted ball, or the batter is awarded first base for some other reason (BB, HBP, Catcher's Interference), batter and all runners have to advance at least one base for the balk to be ignored. If any of these conditions are not fulfilled, the balk is enforced, and the play is ignored. 

If you are familiar with hockey, there are delayed penalties. What this means is if the team with the puck is fouled, the referee will raise his arm to indicate that he saw the penalty, but will not enforce it until the play ends. If the team with the puck scores, the penalty will usually not be enforced. If the other team controls the puck, play stops immediately, and the penalty will be enforced.

A live-ball balk in baseball follows a similar mechanism. The infraction is identified, the umpires wait for the end of the play, and if every offensive player benefits, despite the infraction (advance at least one base safely), the balk is ignored. 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, ilyazhito said:

A basic summary of live ball balks is: Umpire(s) will signal and call out a balk, but wait for play to end before enforcing it. If there is no batted ball, and all runners advance at least one base, the balk is ignored unless there was a pitch where the batter didn't advance. Play proceeds without reference to the balk but it is acknowledged for the batter as a no pitch. If there is a batted ball, or the batter is awarded first base for some other reason (BB, HBP, Catcher's Interference), batter and all runners have to advance at least one base for the balk to be ignored. If any of these conditions are not fulfilled, the balk is enforced, and the play is ignored. 

If you are familiar with hockey, there are delayed penalties. What this means is if the team with the puck is fouled, the referee will raise his arm to indicate that he saw the penalty, but will not enforce it until the play ends. If the team with the puck scores, the penalty will usually not be enforced. If the other team controls the puck, play stops immediately, and the penalty will be enforced.

A live-ball balk in baseball follows a similar mechanism. The infraction is identified, the umpires wait for the end of the play, and if every offensive player benefits, despite the infraction (advance at least one base safely), the balk is ignored. 

Added bold to make your summary more precise.

[BigBlue4u]

On 8/3/2022 at 2:31 PM, Richvee said:

Umpiring the semis and final of a tourney yesterday. Perfect game has some convoluted rules....Basically FED, with the typical batting order and sub usage amendments. But Prefect Game pithing rules are "MLB pitching rules, so balks are live, but fake to third is legal" 

So, onto the game. R1, first pitch to next batter F1 blows through the stop. I call "balk" from "B", batter fouls off the pitch. I send R1 to second, DHC asks my HP umpire "what's the count" He says "no count"  DHC- "But balks are live" PU - "oh yeah, 0-1" ....Oh boy, time for me to get involved. 

I walk to my partner and say "there's no count, the balk nullifies the pitch unless all runners and the batter runner reach base. " PU- "damn, Oh yeah, OK, 0-0"

Well of course now here comes the DHC and he's genuinely perplexed. he says.. "Now wait a minute, that's what I though until yesterday, the same thing happened to my team at bat, and the umpire said "No it's strike one because balks are live." The coach went on to say "He told me if the guy hit a double to left field and all runners scored you would count it, so we count the strike as well with live ball balks"  

I did my best to explain the concept of batter and all runners must advance at least one base in order to nullify the balk and "count" the  pitch, but I could see it was twisting his mind. .He had that "I have no idea what you just said" look in his eyes. He left me with a "well you're wrong "  comment and turned back to the dugout. I told him politely read the rule when you get a chance and the ballgame continued with the correct 0-0 count and no further issues. 

If that's not enough, next inning, the OHC is in 1B coaching box and askes what did he want on that balk call. I told him he wanted the pitch to count and enforce the balk. to which the OHC replies, "Geeze, everyone knows it's coaches choice, the balk or the play".   

Here is something to keep in mind.  Have you ever considered the fact that sometimes the coach does know the rule and he's trying to see if YOU know the rule?  

[Kevin_K]

6 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Here is something to keep in mind.  Have you ever considered the fact that sometimes the coach does know the rule and he's trying to see if YOU know the rule?  

One time I saw a unicorn being ridden by a leprechaun. They were chasing bigfoot.

No one believes me when I recall this even when I say it's possible.

[Richvee]

7 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Here is something to keep in mind.  Have you ever considered the fact that sometimes the coach does know the rule and he's trying to see if YOU know the rule?  

Ummmm.  No. Not this time. 

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

Ummmm.  No. Not this time. 

No, you didn't consider it, or no, that's not what was happening?  😉

 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

6 hours ago, Richvee said:

 

No, you didn't consider it, or no, that's not what was happening?  😉

Trust me, these guys had no clue. I’m perfectly aware of situations where my rules knowledge may be being tested, and this wasn’t it. 

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

One time I saw a unicorn being ridden by a leprechaun. They were chasing bigfoot.

No one believes me when I recall this even when I say it's possible.

I thought it was true -- then I realize the UFO would not be biog enough for this to happen.

[lawump]

Balks are immediately dead in FED because that's what the NFHS Executive Committee wants.

[BigBlue4u]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:56 AM, ilyazhito said:

If there is no batted ball, and all runners advance at least one base, the balk is ignored. 

I believe for a balk to be ignored, the batter as well as the runners must advance at least one base (6.02 (a) (13) PEN) (MLB)  (9.3.m.(1)) ( NCAA)

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

I believe for a balk to be ignored, the batter as well as the runners must advance at least one base (6.02 (a) (13) PEN) (MLB)  (9.3.m.(1)) ( NCAA)

That's on a batted ball (well, a play in which the batter becomes a runner)

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

I believe for a balk to be ignored, the batter as well as the runners must advance at least one base (6.02 (a) (13) PEN) (MLB)  (9.3.m.(1)) ( NCAA)

I believe this is why FED makes all balks dead. Unless you are pointing out the semantic difference of a balk being ignored vs acknowledged.