Is this a walk off or the 3rd out?

[Guest BradM]

Appy league game, believe we're following MLB rules. Bottom 9th, to use game, bases loaded and 2 outs. Batter bloops one down the right field line. Runner from 1st never touches second. Before he gets there, he pivots and runs to join the celebration. Is he called out for failing to advance? And does it being the third out nullify the winning run? Or does the run score?

[Guest BradM]

Sorry, that should have said "tied game".

[noumpere]

R1 was forced, he's out, no run can score when the third out is a force out.

 

Some might way to wait for a defensive appeal.

[ErichKeane]

There is a case for abandonment and calling him out right there (and, as noumpere said, would be out as a 'force', and thus no runs would score).  According to the case play in the 5.09(b)(1-2) comment listed here:

https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/mlb-umpire-manual/abandoning-base-path-including-after-third-strike-not-caught/

This is what SHOULD have happened.  That said, I'm not sure I've ever seen someone call that without an appeal.

[Jimurray]

19 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

There is a case for abandonment and calling him out right there (and, as noumpere said, would be out as a 'force', and thus no runs would score).  According to the case play in the 5.09(b)(1-2) comment listed here:

https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/mlb-umpire-manual/abandoning-base-path-including-after-third-strike-not-caught/

This is what SHOULD have happened.  That said, I'm not sure I've ever seen someone call that without an appeal.

If we call abandonment isn’t it a time play?  We don’t take the run away if it scored before we call abandonment. But we can take the run away if the defense puts out R1 in live action before they leave the field. It looks like they are appealing  but if the ball stays live and the defense is still on the field it’s just a putout of R1. 

[ErichKeane]

4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If we call abandonment isn’t it a time play?  We don’t take the run away if it scored before we call abandonment. But we can take the run away if the defense puts out R1 in live action before they leave the field. It looks like they are appealing  but if the ball stays live and the defense is still on the field it’s just a putout of R1. 

I don't believe it becomes a time-play.  Abandonment would be getting out before reaching 2nd base, and no run can score if the 3rd out is made before a runner reaches a base to which he is forced (or a BR that didn't make it to 1st).

[noumpere]

This is from J?R:

 

 

OTOH, this is from an old MLBUM:

 

[ErichKeane]

15 minutes ago, noumpere said:

This is from J?R:

 

 

OTOH, this is from an old MLBUM:

 

Huh, I stand corrected!  Thanks!   So an appeal _IS_ a force play, but abandonment isn't. 

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

Huh, I stand corrected!  Thanks!   So an appeal _IS_ a force play, but abandonment isn't. 

That's never been in doubt (in the situation o the OP).

 

That depends on which interp you believe.

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

That's never been in doubt (in the situation o the OP).

 

That depends on which interp you believe.

Actually your MLBUM cite doesn't take the run off due to a force. It takes the run off due to the abandonment happening before R3 touches HP. So there is no conflict between interps.

[Matt]

Wendlestedt case play AP24 matches this one and states that abandonment before reaching a forced base is a force out.

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, Matt said:

Wendlestedt case play AP24 matches this one and states that abandonment before reaching a forced base is a force out.

That currently might be the proper cite/ruling. While it appears Carl Childress was scratching his head in my 2011 BRD regarding the J-R interp something changed in 2017 where the MLBUM added Interp. 31, "Abandonment on a Force Play: A base runner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runner(s)."

While that refers to other runners it implies that the abandoning runner is forced. But does Wendelstedt specify that the abandonment out is itself a force or that subsequent appeal will be a force?

 

[Matt]

14 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That currently might be the proper cite/ruling. While it appears Carl Childress was scratching his head in my 2011 BRD regarding the J-R interp something changed in 2017 where the MLBUM added Interp. 31, "Abandonment on a Force Play: A base runner being called out for abandoning his effort to touch the next base does not change a force play to a tag or time play on any other runner(s)."

While that refers to other runners it implies that the abandoning runner is forced. But does Wendelstedt specify that the abandonment out is itself a force or that subsequent appeal will be a force?

 

It specifies that abandonment is a force. There is no appeal in the case play.

[Jimurray]

24 minutes ago, Matt said:

It specifies that abandonment is a force. There is no appeal in the case play.

That cinches it. I'm guessing that 2017 MLBUM added interp was part of them revising the old J-R interp.

[Vegas_Ump]

I remember a MLB playoff game where the bases were loaded, tie game, and B4 hits an apparent granny!

R3 touched home plate, all other runners did advance, but BR joined the mosh pit after touching first base.

The official scorer awarded ONLY the walk-off run from R3.  Well, one run was enough to win the game, but the sportswriters were going nuts trying to figure out the value of the hit (it was awarded as a single), and how many RBI's the batter got credit for.

They won the game, and that was sufficient!

Over the years I guess I do recall the Approved Rulings and Interpretations of the OP sitch as changing.  My advice is don't go looking for trouble, but rule on what eventually happens.

Mike

Las Vegas

[mw94]

5 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

I remember a MLB playoff game where the bases were loaded, tie game, and B4 hits an apparent granny!

R3 touched home plate, all other runners did advance, but BR joined the mosh pit after touching first base.

The official scorer awarded ONLY the walk-off run from R3.  Well, one run was enough to win the game, but the sportswriters were going nuts trying to figure out the value of the hit (it was awarded as a single), and how many RBI's the batter got credit for.

They won the game, and that was sufficient!

Over the years I guess I do recall the Approved Rulings and Interpretations of the OP sitch as changing.  My advice is don't go looking for trouble, but rule on what eventually happens.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

[beerguy55]

I would just say that any assertion by anybody of any pedigree that a forced runner called for abandonment is no longer a force is either idiocy, or an attempt by someone to be sophisticated, and effectively outsmarting themselves.

Not only that, it could create a loophole for the offense to exploit to get a runner from third to score that nobody wants.

 

Is someone now going to try to argue that a forced runner called out for going off the baseline is a time play?

 

If you're a forced runner, it doesn't matter how you are put out...it's a force.

[The Man in Blue]