Straight lined in infield positioning - new lesson to learn

[BLWizzRanger]

Happened tonight.  Rule set or age doesn't matter.

I am in B with an R1.  Batter hits a weak popup caught by F6 behind the mound.  I moved to deep B to stay out of the way.  F6 turns and throws to F3 to try and double up R1.  I call R1 safe as he steps back to the base.  I saw the step into the base and determined the foot was there touching the base and the reason it kept moving to the base was due to the base depressing.  After the game, PU says he would have called R1 out.

Manager comes out to ask for help which I deny since it was a judgement call and I felt I had a good angle.  The manager didn't say the magic words of 'I thought you were straight-lined.'  I also thought that the PU had to look through F3's feet to see R1 get back into the base - again, I had the best angle.

Since it was on my mind the rest of the game after I conferred with my PU and learning what he thought, I started to think that I was lazy that I didn't move to get a better angle, but, in reality, I was really in the only position i could have been. If I move up to my right, I am in the play.  If I move back or to my left, I am worse straight-lined.

So what did I learn?  Sometimes I shouldn't be stubborn when a manager asks me for help.  Also, I should realize on my own that I was straight-lined.

So, that was BU call, right? I have never had a pre-game where one says PU has the tags back into 1b.  What else could be done?

[JonnyCat]

It's the BU's call for sure. Sometimes when working inside, you have to move to avoid the fielder or the ball. Sometimes that movement does not put you in the ideal spot for another play.

Where exactly was your starting position from B? Could you have been starting too deep in B, and maybe moved deeper as F6 came over? If I'm in the B position, as taught by MiLB, I might be able to move closer to the 1B line as F6 was coming in. Or maybe move towards the midpoint of the runners lane? That may have given you a better angle. I think regardless, the only way to get a better angle in your play as described, you have to move somewhere in the direction of the foul line or kind of in the direction of home plate.

That's the only thing I can think of, but of course it's a HTBT, and there may have not been much of anything you could have done.

[dumbdumb]

i will let everyone in the know talk about the positioning issue. But, as we have seen now that more video is available, the help official will also miss calls and the original (from a supposed not great position) call was correct all along. So, we get help and change the call from the correct call to an incorrect call. so can the coach who had the original correct call made to start with, now appeal to get help again from the original caller and get the call correct, (remember, its all about getting the call correct, not about better view, positioning, help or no help, etc. etc.) which it was from the beginning to start with.

[noumpere]

You were right the first time that this is BU's call all the way.  I wouldn't go for help, as described.

BU can move outside the baseline on this toward (not "to") the normal "take a throw at first" position.  The issues might come if F6 drops the ball, but any foprce4 at second likely won't be a close play and you'll have plenty of time to move.

[Catch18]

I call R1 safe as he steps back to the base.  I saw the step into the base and determined the foot was there.

Manager comes out to ask for help which I deny since it was a judgement call and I felt I had a good angle.

So what did I learn?  Sometimes I shouldn't be stubborn when a manager asks me for help.

1. That’s all you need. On judgement calls, “I had…” is enough. The rest is puff.

2. Good. Coaches don’t get to shop around on judgement calls, I don’t care if he thinks “you were straightlined” or if you called it from Timbuktu.

3. He has no basis for thinking you “need help.”

Personal soapbox, for no other reason do I hate IR in sports, than it’s infused down to amateur sports in the form of “find someone else to give me what I want.”

[maven]

I agree with previous posts. 

Why would it be magic words if coach said he thought you were straight lined? You were worried about it too, and that comment is not objectionable even if false. 

[The Man in Blue]

I understand what you are saying about "magic words", @BLWizzRanger, but I agree with @maventhat the words aren't magic unless there is a valid point to go with them.

I never have an issue with a coach asking me to go for help IF:

• the coach clearly defines what it is believed that I have missed (shows the coach is not just arguing the call) AND
• provides a valid reason why I may have missed it (shows the coach is understanding of my position) AND
• I can see the possibility (shows I am empathetic and humble enough to accept I may have erred and I want to get it right)

Without ALL of these though, it is a fishing expedition.  The last one is the actually the toughest.  You know when you looked in the wrong spot, may have had a bad angle, or may have been screened out ... that is the first place where we have to be honest with ourselves.  Even if we are fairly certain we got it right.

Building on that last part, I also agree with @dumbdumb ... when we go to our partner, we need to make sure the information we are giving or asking for is completely honest.  If we think it is a definite reversal, say so.  If we aren't sure, say so!  When a partner comes to me, I make him/her be specific in what they are asking for.  I provide them with what I saw and then I give them my confidence level in what I saw.  "It looked to me as if ... but I did not have the best look because ..." OR "It was definitely ... here's what I had that you may not have gotten."  I will also challenge my partner to try to "see" it from the dugout angle so they can get a better understanding of the coach's point and provide a good explanation.

 

[834k3r]

On 7/7/2022 at 7:31 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

Happened tonight.  Rule set or age doesn't matter.

I am in B with an R1.  Batter hits a weak popup caught by F6 behind the mound.  I moved to deep B to stay out of the way.  F6 turns and throws to F3 to try and double up R1.  I call R1 safe as he steps back to the base.  I saw the step into the base and determined the foot was there touching the base and the reason it kept moving to the base was due to the base depressing.  After the game, PU says he would have called R1 out.

Manager comes out to ask for help which I deny since it was a judgement call and I felt I had a good angle.  The manager didn't say the magic words of 'I thought you were straight-lined.'  I also thought that the PU had to look through F3's feet to see R1 get back into the base - again, I had the best angle.

Since it was on my mind the rest of the game after I conferred with my PU and learning what he thought, I started to think that I was lazy that I didn't move to get a better angle, but, in reality, I was really in the only position i could have been. If I move up to my right, I am in the play.  If I move back or to my left, I am worse straight-lined.

So what did I learn?  Sometimes I shouldn't be stubborn when a manager asks me for help.  Also, I should realize on my own that I was straight-lined.

So, that was BU call, right? I have never had a pre-game where one says PU has the tags back into 1b.  What else could be done?

Up front, I wouldn't say I would've been in any different position than you. Additionally, I've never pre-gamed return touches to 1B before, so you're not alone there. With HTBT in mind, would it have helped if you moved into the dirt (thereby changing the angle of your look)?

Again, I can't say I would've been in any better position than you. FWIW, you seem to have made the best decision available to you.

[BLWizzRanger]

On 7/9/2022 at 6:12 AM, maven said:

I agree with previous posts. 

Why would it be magic words if coach said he thought you were straight lined? You were worried about it too, and that comment is not objectionable even if false. 

Magic words in that it might have triggered the thought and realization sooner that I was actually straight lined and I should have gotten help.

There is a fine line in staying stationary and taking a step or two after the play has finished and delaying my timing.  That might have helped my see the entire sequence as well. Oh well, ump and learn.

[maven]

8 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Magic words in that it might have triggered the thought and realization sooner that I was actually straight lined and I should have gotten help.

OK. You should know that on the forum, when we use the term 'magic words', we generally mean an expression that will get someone ejected.

[BLWizzRanger]

Thank you. My mistake in thinking 'magic words' was all in the context of the conversation and not automatically tied to ejections.

[LRZ]

Whether straight-lined or not, you saw something definite (the step into the bag, which depressed) and exercised your judgment. How do you know your partner's judgment was correct and yours wrong? You don't. Trust yourself, trust your judgment.

I don't particularly care what a coach thinks he saw--confirmation bias affects one's perceptions.

[BLWizzRanger]

50 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Whether straight-lined or not, you saw something definite (the step into the bag, which depressed) and exercised your judgment. How do you know your partner's judgment was correct and yours wrong? You don't. Trust yourself, trust your judgment.

I don't particularly care what a coach thinks he saw--confirmation bias affects one's perceptions.

Oh, I trust my judgement and am not afraid to admit my mistakes.  I rarely second guess myself though I do analyze my calls to make sure that I called them right or learn from them.  I don't beat myself upside my head because I probably got a call wrong but maybe linger on them slightly to determine what I need to do to be in a better position. I guess I am still making my decision/movement tree, if you will.

All in all, it is the realization that sometimes the play itself puts you in a bad position (maybe get help if asked), sometimes you put yourself in a bad position (shame on you).    One bad habit I have is if there is a ground ball to RF, I might linger in A while determining if there will be a play at first.  One time while being evaluated, I moved from A to closer to the coaches box when there was a popup behind first. (2M) On both of these, I need to get inside and line it up from there.

Anyways, still learning.

[MadMax]

On 7/7/2022 at 9:31 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

After the game, PU says he would have called R1 out.

And, after everyone else's applicable comments here, I'll supplement them with this – 

Do not put much credence into what your PU partner says on this play or matter, unless said partner is a trusted friend/colleague or evaluator. Even if he's an evaluator, he should have accompanied this observation with a dialogue with you about positioning and sightlines and such... not that "R1 (would have been) was Out (as he saw it)". 

Why? 

Because an experienced, competent umpire knows what role he/she has in a multi-umpire dynamic, and what responsibilities each role takes. Also, within that role responsibility, what things they can/cannot judge on, versus what things they can/cannot rule on. 

Can a rule (mis)application be overruled? Yes. Indeed, it should be, as a crew, so as to "get the rule (ruling) right". 
Can a judgement be overturned? No. Indeed, it shouldn't be. 

So going back to the "PU says he would've called R1 out", be careful with/around guys like this. In my experience, these sorts of (amateur) umpires are those that just wanna go home, as expediently as possible, often at the sake of accuracy and integrity. 

[Mudisfun]

He is my problem with going to a partner, even if just for the optics of trying to look like your approachable and wanting to 'get it right' on judgement calls:

It makes you and the officiating team look weak. Really weak. And if you go for help, be ready for the fishing trips all game.

Seriously, if I go to you for your opinion and actually overturn my own judgement call, then I might as well go sit in the car, let you call the entire game and hand you my game fee. Yes, you might have been out of position, and yes, your partner may have had a better look, but you made the call based on what you saw. That is it, and you and the coaches need to live with it. 

Barring something actually happening on the play where additional information can be gleaned from your partner like a pulled foot off the bag, a swipe tag you are screened on or something where additional actions happen, there is zero information your partner is able to provide which allows you to overturn your own call and maintain any sense of confidence for the remainder of the game.

Do we want to get the calls right? Of course we do! But substituting the judgement of your partner for your own is not the way to accomplish this. There is a misconception out there that every call we make has to be perfect. We strive to be right, we strive to do the best we can, but no matter how good you do, the other side is not going to be happy or always agree with your calls. I had a professor in school who was a retired Superior Court Judge. He asked us if an error was made by the court during a trial meant that a conviction automatically would be cleared. After the opinions of the class were heard, he set us straight. Barring a serious breach by the court, any small procedural error does not result in a new trial. You are entitled to a fair trial, not a perfect trial. Considering he was dealing with literally life and death quite often, I try and keep that standard in mind when officiating what is a game.

Do your best, be as fair as possible and try and get them all right, but don't go fishing for help on your calls. 

 

 

[Vegas_Ump]

The PU has the catch in the infield.  So the BU needs to move during that time in order to be able to call three existential plays: 1) appeal on R1, 2) if the ball is dropped, then the force at 2B, 3) if the ball is dropped, then the play at 1B on the BR.

The OP suggested it was not much of a popup, so that means you had less time to position.  Better to be solidly still to see the play than be running around. If you were 100% sure the bag was depressing because of R1's foot, then you got the call right.  Post-game discussion with the PU is always useful, but he was busy with his duty and maybe 90-100 feet away when the play happened.  I have kicked closer calls than that, and it was what it was.

Now if you are NOT 100% sure, a conference with the PU might be ok.  But I'd be wary of a coach who thinks his umpire mechanics are better than yours or who is "mining" for a call.

Mike

Las Vegas

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

The PU has the catch in the infield.  

Wat?

[BigBlue4u]

"So what did I learn?  Sometimes I shouldn't be stubborn when a manager asks me for help.  Also, I should realize on my own that I was straight-lined."

(This was apparently later because earlier you said, "Manager comes out to ask for help which I deny since it was a judgement call and I felt I had a good angle.")

So, that was BU call, right? I have never had a pre-game where one says PU has the tags back into 1b.  What else could be done?"

--

What are you going to do in the future, ask your partner every time a coach comes out to question a call?  Of course not!  If you think you got a good look at the play, do exactly as you did.  IF you are not sure you got a good angle, THEN go to your partner.  Trust your judgment!

[The Man in Blue]

On 7/22/2022 at 10:38 AM, Mudisfun said:

He is my problem with going to a partner, even if just for the optics of trying to look like your approachable and wanting to 'get it right' on judgement calls:

It makes you and the officiating team look weak. Really weak. And if you go for help, be ready for the fishing trips all game.

 

I cut that down for brevity, but I just want to say that I hope newer umpires take the right information from that post because it is spot on in the point.

Go for help when you should, not when somebody asks.  I don't necessarily agree that going for help at the right times will beget the barrage of fishing expeditions.  Going for help at the wrong times will though.  Knowing when is the key.

I've had multiple games this season where I and my partner got together multiple times in the game, but none were fishing expeditions.  Sometimes we did change the initial call, sometimes we confirmed the initial call.   But after each of those games, we received the best compliments I have ever received from coaches, fans, coaches who weren't part of that game, TDs, and assignors.  The common thought was that we knew when to get together and did so for the right reasons.  (On a tangent, the partners I had in those games were the ones I enjoyed working with the most this year.)

[BLWizzRanger]

I am actually surprised this has gone on as long as it has. Especially since I pretty much said I learned my lesson to not be so stringent in not going to my partner.  Know when you know you have right call but know when you should go for help.  But, hopefully, for some newer-than-me readers will see the wisdom given throughout the thread.  No sarcasm here.

Anyways, I had another experience this past weekend where on a 6-4-3 double play, I called R1 and BR out from B'ish.  When I went back to 'A', the BR wouldn't get off of the bag even though I told him I called him out.  He actually argued with me, respectively, that he was safe.  Finally, my partner got with me and told me the the F3 stepped off of the base toward second and was ~2 feet from the base when he caught it.  I never saw that. Ultimately, we got it right because my experienced partner knew he had information and wanted to share it with me.

What got me off of the play was the turn by F4.  Awkwardly, He slipped on the turf on the left field side of 2nd and I was trying hard to see if he actually skimmed 2nd with his foot.  I took this one thought all the way to looking at 1st and watched the ball be caught before the BR passed.  I didn't look at F3's feet.  Apparently, F3 saw the awkwardness F4 had on the turn and didn't think he would get the ball there in time.  So, he came up the baseline toward 2nd to catch the throw.

I let one bang-bang call affect the next bang-bang call and I was receptive to getting help from my partner.  I like to think if the coach actually asked me to get help, I would have on this one since I knew I was still thinking about the last play when making the next call and I didn't have all of the information.

[The Man in Blue]

@BLWizzRanger I'm glad you are taking the continuance of this thread for what it is.  I think this a valuable topic that we cannot discuss (and reinforce) enough in this day and age.

In your next story you mention that the player was arguing with you ... How did you end up going to your partner?  One thing that I try to do with coaches (and players to a much lesser extent) is teach them the appropriate way to get their point across.  I really like doing this with players, but the opportunities are far more limited (as they should be).

[BLWizzRanger]

I went back into A and looked up and saw the new R1 there. So I called time and walked up to him saying that I called him out, what was he still doing there? All he kept saying was he was safe. He might have mentioned the f3 pulled foot but they all say that, dont they? After this went on two or three times, I looked down to my partner who was starting to walk my way ( he wasnt past the LH batters box yet). My partner motioned me to come down to talk.

The coach was coming from the third base coaching box around that time but stopped and waited for us to finish our discussion and then turned around when we got it right.

There was no outlandish behavior on the players or coaches part.

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