If one person got hurt....

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

Sorry - but rumbles made me think of this.

..time for something sweet!

Oh bother

Well, one person in this thread is full of pooh.

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I originally stated thunder in my mind I meant rumbles

If I see no flashes in the sky and no storm clouds in the sky.  Nothing that looks like anything like it could be a problem.  I ignore it and play on.  If I see something  a flash or a trouble cloud and hear or just hear a CRACK

I "game off"

Quite a bit of the spots I umpire in and or around are too close to that airport and or the trucking industry.

Something the good book states is that everyone must return to their vehicles and NOT stay in the dugouts.

I know for a fact not every kid there had a parent bring them or drop them off and also does not have access to a car. I for one along with half the team when I was a kid would bike over to the field.

So am I supposed to tell those kids go find shelter else where?

Just asking cause to me THAT seems darned foolish

 

 

I can respect this point.  It is not the umpire's duty to have a storm plan or evacuation plan for the facility.  My operating procedure is as such (and please feel free to critique!):

• See/hear triggering event
• Immediately call "TIME!" followed by "EVERYBODY OFF THE FIELD!"
• Grab my partner and go to both dugouts (do NOT call the coaches out) and advise them I saw lightning/heard thunder so we are suspending play.  Advise them nobody is to be on the field, the facility administrator (tournament director, athletic director, etc.) will provide them with further instructions and updates.
• Leave the field and find the facility administrator to provide them with the facts.  Advise the facility administrator if there were still players in the dugouts, fans in the stands, etc. when you left.  Advise facility administrator where I and my partner will be (umpire area, cars, etc.) and ensure we have phone numbers (if there is not a central umpire area/locker room).
• Once facility administrator secures the facility (allow them to do this first!), check with facility administrator on preferred procedures such as confirming 30 minute rule (and do not deviate!), determine if they have adequate weather tracking (a phone app can be a tool, but is not a replacement), determine how long you will wait for a decision on resuming or postponing, etc.

It is the facility administrator's responsibility to ensure the dugouts and stands are clear, not yours.  I know that plays very differently if you are talking about league nights at the local park.  This is why it is CRITICAL for local organizations to have clearly written and defined plans in place. 

When I ran our local rec league, one of my priorities was to develop and adopt a written emergency plan that spelled out plans for everything from severe weather to mass casualty events such as an active shooter situation and a train derailment (because our fields were right next to train tracks).  I was lucky that I worked with a number of county emergency management agency directors who helped with some of that, but any county/municipal EMA director should be more than willing to help an organization develop a plan.  Even the National Weather Service has people who are happy to provide assistance and education to your organization.  In fact, any large public event should be in contact with the NWS leading up to the event, as they will gladly serve as your weather spotter and provide individualized alerts and data for your event.

Sorry, getting into the weeds there ... but my point is this is SO MUCH BIGGER than just a couple of us blue shirts on a field.  There are tools, resources, and educational sources available if we just take advantage of them.

[SeeingEyeDog]

If I hear thunder or see lightning? I clear the field for 30 minutes until we haven't heard more thunder or seen more lightning. The clock resets for every bit of thunder heard or lightning seen. For the leagues I work with a time limit, if we get inside 30 minutes of the no new inning time? We all go home. For HS games, once we have had the plate meeting the decision to suspend the game is ultimately the umpire crew and we also engage with the Athletic Director or school leadership. Not to help us make a decision. To help us deliver a decision. If it's a tournament, we engage the Tournament Director. Why? Because that is the specific direction I have been given by my association leadership.

Brothers, I would encourage all of you, if you are unclear in ANY way, shape or form about your umpire association's directives or your league's directives regarding field conditions or inclement weather or any other policy that would assist your judgement in suspending, postponing or not starting a baseball game that you have been assigned to work? Please ask them. If you work for an association, talk with your assigner(s) and or association leadership. If you work for a league, talk with league leadership. Simply ask them...What are the association's/league's inclement weather policies? If the applicable rulebook does not have inclement weather language OR if the association or league deviates from the rulebook...get a printed copy of the inclement weather policy and keep it with your other rulebooks. Read the policies. Know the policies. If you still have questions, ask them and again, make sure you are asking the person with the proper authority. Once you have a firm understanding of the policies, then it's no different than any other judgement call we make. We are simply executing on the policy or plan or whatever your association or league calls it...in the name of keeping those on the field as safe as we can.

We can always re-schedule a baseball game. We can't undo the injury or death from inclement weather.

Not a sermon, just a thought...

~Dawg

[Catch18]

There’s 2 ways to be wrong in handling lightning/weather.

If you’re not sure which one you are on, stop umpiring.

[Jimurray]

On 7/13/2022 at 8:05 AM, Catch18 said:

There’s 2 ways to be wrong in handling lightning/weather.

If you’re not sure which one you are on, stop umpiring.

and stop coaching any youth activity: 2nd student rower dies after apparent lightning strike on Florida lake (msn.com)

[BrainFreeze]

On 6/27/2022 at 4:03 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

I have seen it and if I hear a rumble to me thats nothing

I need to see something in the sky.

 

Bro,  you sound more like a coach than an umpire on this one.

 

[BrainFreeze]

On 7/7/2022 at 2:47 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

Guess what we did not stop the game but I sat there for a second thinking about this thread and the folks who just do not understand what I mean.

Guess what? 

Everyone here knows the difference between an airplane taking off and thunder.

Everyone here *should* know the difference between being a good umpire and being *that* guy. 

Apparently, not all of us do.

[BrainFreeze]

A personal experience, with adults from a Little League organization that should know better.

My 8-year-old grandson played in a LL Minors tournament in Coon Rapids, MN this summer. 

There were *active* thunderstorms in the area.  No clearing of fields, no nothing.  It was f-ing ridiculous.  There was audible thunder and visible lightning for nearly an hour.  All of it was in the distance, and there was no rain.  Predictably, the ass-hat adults running the tournament all took out their phones, and to a man they said, "No, it's not near here, we're good. 

The Little League program in Coon Rapids has a *great* program.  The park is gorgeous, big parent/volunteer support, and they win consistently.  They should have *everything* that a parent would want for their kids to have in a Little League.  They even have umpire training for younger players who are interested in umpiring. 

During this tournament, the youth umpires were *very* poorly served by the adults running the tournament.  The youth umpires in our game stopped when they saw lightning, the adults running the tournament instructed them to play on.

The greatest irony here??  The tournament is a memorial tournament for one of our brother umpires who volunteered for nearly 30 years and lost his battle with cancer far too soon.  He would have stopped immediately, and chewed the asses of anyone who thought it would be OK to play. 

/rant

[BrainFreeze]

Ok I said /rant, but I'm not quite done. 

Your umpire association, the baseball organizations for which you umpire, and you yourself, should all have some form of liability insurance that protects you from things that happen while you are officiating a game.

If you decide to not call a game after you hear thunder or see lightning, guess what?  Your insurance coverage vanishes.

So, if the risk of having someone struck by lightning or God forbid being killed by lighting isn't quite enough, please consider that you'd be ruined financially along with being completely responsible for something completely preventable. 

OK, now for real /rant

[Tborze]

9 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

A personal experience, with adults from a Little League organization that should know better.

My 8-year-old grandson played in a LL Minors tournament in Coon Rapids, MN this summer. 

There were *active* thunderstorms in the area.  No clearing of fields, no nothing.  It was f-ing ridiculous.  There was audible thunder and visible lightning for nearly an hour.  All of it was in the distance, and there was no rain.  Predictably, the ass-hat adults running the tournament all took out their phones, and to a man they said, "No, it's not near here, we're good. 

The Little League program in Coon Rapids has a *great* program.  The park is gorgeous, big parent/volunteer support, and they win consistently.  They should have *everything* that a parent would want for their kids to have in a Little League.  They even have umpire training for younger players who are interested in umpiring. 

During this tournament, the youth umpires were *very* poorly served by the adults running the tournament.  The youth umpires in our game stopped when they saw lightning, the adults running the tournament instructed them to play on.

The greatest irony here??  The tournament is a memorial tournament for one of our brother umpires who volunteered for nearly 30 years and lost his battle with cancer far too soon.  He would have stopped immediately, and chewed the asses of anyone who thought it would be OK to play. 

/rant

Did you pull your 8 yr old GS off the field?  

[Lou B]

Living in Florida, the lightning capitol of the world, the vast majority of fields have Lightning Warning Systems.  I've seen/heard them go off under sunny skies.  Sometimes a storm/lightning will follow, sometimes not. Either way, horn goes off clear the field until the all clear sounds.

On fields with no warning system, if you hear thunder or see lightning clear the fields for 30 minutes.  Clock resets every time you hear thunder or see lightning.

[ArchAngel72]

11 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

Guess what? 

Everyone here knows the difference between an airplane taking off and thunder.

Everyone here *should* know the difference between being a good umpire and being *that* guy. 

Apparently, not all of us do.

 

Really you have many airports right where you umpire?

 

State Finals this year we had multiple planes taking off during games and probably 5 or 6 times I heard parents asking was that thunder?

Only to see 2 minutes later a jet flew over head 

So yeah they are "That guy too"

🤣

[BrainFreeze]

4 hours ago, Tborze said:

Did you pull your 8 yr old GS off the field?  

That's only a partially fair question.  If SWMBO and I were there by ourselves and we were taking care of him, I take my grandson off the field immediately and I make a *big* scene about it.

 

His parents were there with us -- not my place to do that.  Mom and Dad both got earfuls from me about it. 

 

[ArchAngel72]

2 minutes ago, BrainFreeze said:

That's only a partially fair question.  If SWMBO and I were there by ourselves and we were taking care of him, I take my grandson off the field immediately and I make a *big* scene about it.

 

His parents were there with us -- not my place to do that.  Mom and Dad both got earfuls from me about it. 

 

Did anything happen  ?  Did anyone get struck by lightning?

 

 

[ArchAngel72]

17 hours ago, Jimurray said:

and stop coaching any youth activity: 2nd student rower dies after apparent lightning strike on Florida lake (msn.com)

A little bit different being out on the water and on a ball field .  There is no real info there to suggest they were not trying to get off the water nor how fast the storm moved in etc. etc.

A spot like that I would not pass judgement on until I knew all the facts behind it.

 

[lawump]

On 6/30/2022 at 1:14 PM, BLWizzRanger said:

Please find one case where an umpire was sued due to their negligence of removing players late from a field and one of the players/parents got struck by lightning.  

Took five seconds to find:

https://www.timesargus.com/news/family-of-lightning-victim-seeks-ruling-claims-umpire-lied/article_5d68aefa-acdd-51b8-8505-05d8f2d1a7a3.html

See page 4 of this PDF document:  https://marshalldennehey.com/sites/default/files/pdf-articles/O 382 by J. Cross (2015) URMIA Journal.pdf

 

[Tborze]

18 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

That's only a partially fair question.  If SWMBO and I were there by ourselves and we were taking care of him, I take my grandson off the field immediately and I make a *big* scene about it.

 

His parents were there with us -- not my place to do that.  Mom and Dad both got earfuls from me about it. 

 

I can respect that!  

[stevis]

19 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Did anything happen  ?  Did anyone get struck by lightning?

 

 

I very rarely, in a car, even bump a curb, let alone another vehicle.

I still put on my seatbelt every time.

[BLWizzRanger]

I would really love to let this thread die as it seems the comments now are implying we are the smart ones and you are f'n stupid.  No, we are not f'n stupid, we have a lower risk aversion than others.  And that is really what is comes down to - your own personal risk aversion. 

Some good points are in here from both sides but there is over a one in a million chance of being struck by lightning.  Of course, the risk goes up if you see lightning.  But let me point out to you what Erie Insurance says about Lightning Safety.  This is one company who writes the checks, so to speak, so their risk avoidance would be higher or at least mathematically influenced to save their selves money.  They use the terminology of "after you see lightning."  They state you should start the clock when you see lightning.  This isn't saying "when you hear thunder" take shelter.

Anyways, this isn't meant to be a mic drop but showing another point of view from a company that has a financial risk if someone is struck by lightning.  And, I think, the argument all along is when to start the clock.  No one said NOT to leave the field if lightning is observed.  Only argument is when to start that clock.  Anyone deciding to wear their seat belts, take their umbrella, wear a bib, wear a helmet, not vaping or smoking a cigarette or taking shelter is all about their risk avoidance. 

 

[SH0102]

I rarely comment on anything other than rules, but Arch, if we were partners, I would walk off the field and leave you solo if you refused to suspend play during thunder.

How can you officiate a game with all these rules that are important to the game but are not life and death but choose to ignore the rules about lightning and thunder?

Late this summer I got chewed on by TD bc I would not restart with “only thunder” and he told me all about how I’m the only umpire who wouldn’t play with thunder.  I told him if he wants to hire unqualified and untrained umpires, that was his perogative, but if he wants good, qualified umpires on his tournaments, who know and abide by rules, especially the legality ones, he gets what he gets, and I volunteered to go home so he can bring in someone else. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I would really love to let this thread die as it seems the comments now are implying we are the smart ones and you are f'n stupid.  No, we are not f'n stupid, we have a lower risk aversion than others.  And that is really what is comes down to - your own personal risk aversion. 

Some good points are in here from both sides but there is over a one in a million chance of being struck by lightning.  Of course, the risk goes up if you see lightning.  But let me point out to you what Erie Insurance says about Lightning Safety.  This is one company who writes the checks, so to speak, so their risk avoidance would be higher or at least mathematically influenced to save their selves money.  They use the terminology of "after you see lightning."  They state you should start the clock when you see lightning.  This isn't saying "when you hear thunder" take shelter.

Anyways, this isn't meant to be a mic drop but showing another point of view from a company that has a financial risk if someone is struck by lightning.  And, I think, the argument all along is when to start the clock.  No one said NOT to leave the field if lightning is observed.  Only argument is when to start that clock.  Anyone deciding to wear their seat belts, take their umbrella, wear a bib, wear a helmet, not vaping or smoking a cigarette or taking shelter is all about their risk avoidance. 

 

The 30-30 rule is out of date and only protects you from storms within 6 miles. A storm 9 miles away can kill you while you are counting to 30. Thunderstorm | Shelter (Building: 30/30 Rule) (fema.gov)

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 9/27/2022 at 9:44 AM, stevis said:

I very rarely, in a car, even bump a curb, let alone another vehicle.

I still put on my seatbelt every time.

In the state I grew up in, it was required (hopefully still is...) for every newly licensed driver to listen to a one hour presentation from a state trooper. I don't remember much of what was said that day as it's been nearly 40 years now...but, there was one thing he said that I have indeed never forgotten.

"I've worked traffic detail for 23 years. I've heard, seen and done a lot of things. One thing I've never had to do...is unbuckle a dead person at an accident scene."

I don't know if this is true. I suspect it's probably not. Even with a seatbelt properly worn, it's hard to imagine surviving a collision in a 1980's sub-compact involving a semi...and a million other scenarios. But, yeah...I still wear a seat belt. There are no guarantees. We can minimize risk but, never eliminate it. 

~Dawg

[beerguy55]

I'll just give the one anecdote I need.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tragedy-strikes-but-hope-lives-on/article4274803/

 

Just google Matt Krol lightning or Chris Reitsma lightning.

 

I played ball with and against both Matt and Chris...simply put, I don't F*#K around.

This scenario was especially unique as there was no warning...no rumble...no precursor...and some people here want to wait to see something in the sky before acting?? 

That rumble may be the only chance you get. 

"When lightning strikes, you're looking at two billion volts. There is nothing that can be done to stop it."

 

 

[Vegas_Ump]

I think we have a lot of good info here to decide if and when to pull the teams off the field.  BUT......

Be careful about letting kids BACK ON THE FIELD if the delay has not expired.

In Culpepper, VA during a District LLWS Tourney, such was the case, when the clouds parted after a lightning delay.  Two kids went back on the field to play catch, but the prescribed time delay had not passed.  Before the umps and District officials could act, a bolt out of the blue killed one ball player instantly and disabled the other.

The only time I carry my cell phone on the field (well-hidden in my ball bag) is when I need my lightning detector app.  Any lightning hit within 10 miles?  We stop!  And before we resume, I check the app many times to see if anything else is in the atmosphere!

And don't say SHAZAM!

Mike

Las Vegas