Wacky play

[Guest Guest]

Rules question. Long fly ball. Bounces once in play. Center fielder grabs it on the bounce and goes over the fence while holding the ball. Call?

[The Man in Blue]

What ruleset was being used for the game?

If NFHS ... everybody gets one base from where they were on the pitch.

 

[Guest Guest]

NFHS

So it's catch and carry, when if they don't catch the fly ball?

 

[Matt]

48 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

What ruleset was being used for the game?

If NFHS ... everybody gets one base from where they were on the pitch.

 

Why? There was no catch.

[noumpere]

Two bases from the time the fielder leaves the field of play.

[The Man in Blue]

@Matt and @noumpere … I was having a helluva time finding a citation.  Can you provide one?  I’m probably wrong on my answer, but catch and carry (unintentional) was what I kept landing on.  It didn’t feel right.

Side note: the term “catch and carry” is only used in the dead ball table.  It is never used in a written rule.  (Poor decision by the NFHS writers.)

[ErichKeane]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

@Matt and @noumpere … I was having a helluva time finding a citation.  Can you provide one?  I’m probably wrong on my answer, but catch and carry (unintentional) was what I kept landing on.  It didn’t feel right.

Side note: the term “catch and carry” is only used in the dead ball table.  It is never used in a written rule.  (Poor decision by the NFHS writers.)

5-1-1(i) (I think?) STILL requires a catch:
a fielder, after catching a fair or foul ball (fly or line drive), leaves the field of play by stepping with both feet or by falling into a bench, dugout, stand, bleacher, or over any boundary or barrier such as a fence, rope, chalk line, or a pregame determined imaginary boundary line; or

So i think it is the "fair ball goes over or lodges in the fence".  I don't see where the 'catch and carry' shows up in the NFHS book, I don't think it i is in the table in mine, which looks sorta like this one: https://ighsau.org/upl/downloads/content-blocks/dead-ball-tables.pdf

See #12 and #18.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 28, p. 35):  FED:  The ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps or falls with both feet into a dead-ball area. (5-1-1i) PENALTY:  Each runner is awarded one base. (8-3-3d)

Note 32:  If the defensive player fields a fair ball on the bounce and then steps into DBT—an unlikely but not impossible occurrence—the award would be two bases from the time the ball goes dead.

Play 30-29:  R1, R2. B1’s short fly is maybe fair, maybe foul. The right fielder is charging hard as the runners go halfway. F9 cannot make the catch, and the ball deflects off his glove. Finally he gains possession of the ball and intentionally steps with both feet into DBT. At the time he enters DBT, each runner and BR have advanced one base. Ruling:  Both runners score and BR goes to third.

[The Man in Blue]

@Senor Azul ... trying to wrap my mind around this.  What supports the two-base award in the "note"? 

I was flummoxed that it seems the rulebook (8-3-3d) only addresses the catching of a fly ball (specifically) and then the fielder going out of play.  Is it treated as a batted ball going out of play even thought the fielder has control of it?

[ErichKeane]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

@Senor Azul ... trying to wrap my mind around this.  What supports the two-base award in the "note"? 

I was flummoxed that it seems the rulebook (8-3-3d) only addresses the catching of a fly ball (specifically) and then the fielder going out of play.  Is it treated as a batted ball going out of play even thought the fielder has control of it?

It's from time it goes out, so I think it is coming from the general "ball goes out of play" rule, to which the catch and carry rule is a specific exception.

[Catch18]

From the 2016 BRD (section 28, p. 35):  FED:  The ball is dead if a fielder with a batted ball caught in flight steps or falls with both feet into a dead-ball area. (5-1-1i) PENALTY:  Each runner is awarded one base. (8-3-3d)
Note 32:  If the defensive player fields a fair ball on the bounce and then steps into DBT—an unlikely but not impossible occurrence—the award would be two bases from the time the ball goes dead.
Play 30-29:  R1, R2. B1’s short fly is maybe fair, maybe foul. The right fielder is charging hard as the runners go halfway. F9 cannot make the catch, and the ball deflects off his glove. Finally he gains possession of the ball and intentionally steps with both feet into DBT. At the time he enters DBT, each runner and BR have advanced one base. Ruling:  Both runners score and BR goes to third.

I don’t believe this would apply (5-1-1i). This play is not a batted ball in flight. Batted ball, yes. It stopped being in flight at first contact with the ground.

[ErichKeane]

5 hours ago, Catch18 said:

I don’t believe this would apply (5-1-1i). This play is not a batted ball in flight. Batted ball, yes. It stopped being in flight at first contact with the ground.

Right, see the bolded section labelled note 32, which specifically mentions picked up on the bounce.

[Senor Azul]

I thought it was odd that the FED did not even have a case play to address this question so I did a little research. It turns out that they did have a case play but, sadly, they deleted it about 20 years ago. The following play entered the FED case book in 1972 and as far as I can tell remained in the case book until 2001.

1972 NFHS baseball Case Book Play 254—How are awards determined when a fielder carries or throws a live ball into a dugout or any dead ball area? Ruling:  When a batted ball is caught in flight and then carried into a dugout or other dead ball area, the award is one base. Any other time a live ball is carried or thrown into dead ball area, except for a pitch or a throw by the pitcher while in contact with his plate, the award is 2 bases. (8-3-3d)

[urout17]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:52 PM, The Man in Blue said:

"I was flummoxed..."

Bet you waited a long time to fit THAT word in somewhere?.  Nicely done.  😀

[The Man in Blue]

On 6/20/2022 at 9:04 AM, Senor Azul said:

I thought it was odd that the FED did not even have a case play to address this question so I did a little research. It turns out that they did have a case play but, sadly, they deleted it about 20 years ago. The following play entered the FED case book in 1972 and as far as I can tell remained in the case book until 2001.

1972 NFHS baseball Case Book Play 254—How are awards determined when a fielder carries or throws a live ball into a dugout or any dead ball area? Ruling:  When a batted ball is caught in flight and then carried into a dugout or other dead ball area, the award is one base. Any other time a live ball is carried or thrown into dead ball area, except for a pitch or a throw by the pitcher while in contact with his plate, the award is 2 bases. (8-3-3d)

 

I love you @Senor Azul ... how the hell do you find this stuff?  Teach me, master!  😁

 

 

4 hours ago, urout17 said:

Bet you waited a long time to fit THAT word in somewhere?.  Nicely done.  😀

 

I love that word.  Especially when teaching ... 😜

[TheLovejoy]

On 6/20/2022 at 8:04 AM, Senor Azul said:

I thought it was odd that the FED did not even have a case play to address this question so I did a little research. It turns out that they did have a case play but, sadly, they deleted it about 20 years ago. The following play entered the FED case book in 1972 and as far as I can tell remained in the case book until 2001.

1972 NFHS baseball Case Book Play 254—How are awards determined when a fielder carries or throws a live ball into a dugout or any dead ball area? Ruling:  When a batted ball is caught in flight and then carried into a dugout or other dead ball area, the award is one base. Any other time a live ball is carried or thrown into dead ball area, except for a pitch or a throw by the pitcher while in contact with his plate, the award is 2 bases. (8-3-3d)

Just to clarify for myself: The one base award is from the time of the pitch, and the 2 base award is from the time the ball enters a dead ball area, correct?

[maven]

1 hour ago, TheLovejoy said:

Just to clarify for myself: The one base award is from the time of the pitch, and the 2 base award is from the time the ball enters a dead ball area, correct?

Yes, one base for catch & carry is TOP.

No, 2 bases is from TOT, or time of throw, not the time the ball enters DBT.

For FED, there's a useful table of base awards after rule 8-2.

[ErichKeane]

8 minutes ago, maven said:

Yes, one base for catch & carry is TOP.

No, 2 bases is from TOT, or time of throw, not the time the ball enters DBT.

For FED, there's a useful table of base awards after rule 8-2.

Also, 2 bases from "Time ball goes out if not thrown", right?

[maven]

19 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

Also, 2 bases from "Time ball goes out if not thrown", right?

No. All awards are either TOP or TOT (except some INT, which is TOI).

The term 'Throw' in 'Time of Throw' includes all modalities of propelling a baseball.

[ErichKeane]

2 minutes ago, maven said:

No. All awards are either TOP or TOT (except some INT, which is TOI).

The term 'Throw' in 'Time of Throw' includes all modalities of propelling a baseball.

We are perhaps caught in semantics here then... What is the 'time of throw' in the case of "fielder picks up ground ball on the run, and goes out of the field?".  Is this different if the fielder catches a throw, THEN carries that out of play?

OBR definition of throw:
THROW is the act of propelling the ball with the hand and arm to a given objective and is to be distinguished, always, from the pitch.

In the 'carried out' case, I don't see any act of propelling the ball with the hand and arm here? 

 

[maven]

2 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

We are perhaps caught in semantics here then... What is the 'time of throw' in the case of "fielder picks up ground ball on the run, and goes out of the field?".  Is this different if the fielder catches a throw, THEN carries that out of play?

Sorry, yes, in that instance, the TOT and the time the ball goes out of play coincide.

[ErichKeane]

7 minutes ago, maven said:

Sorry, yes, in that instance, the TOT and the time the ball goes out of play coincide.

Thanks!  Then it seems we were vehemently agreeing on all but terminology :D STILL not sure I'd call it a 'throw', but I also concede that I see no other way to get the proper 'outcome' in the rulebook otherwise.