Do we ever stop play for obstruction?

[RBIbaseball]

EDIT: this is for FED

 

My understanding is that obstruction is a dealyed dead ball, and that once the play ends naturally, then we would call time and award bases appropriately.

 

That being said, I read on another thread someone talking about when an obstructed runner is in a rundown, they would stop play... not sure if I misunderstood that or not.

 

So barring a head injury or safety reason like that, in what scenarios are we stopping play while there is still playing action to be had (concering a play invovling an obstructed runner)?  Or is it never?

 

[noumpere]

In OBR, play is stopped on Type 1 OBS (play being made on the runner -- including the rundown you reference).

 

In FED, it's a delayed dead ball.

 

That might be the source of your confusion.

[RBIbaseball]

4 minutes ago, noumpere said:

In OBR, play is stopped on Type 1 OBS (play being made on the runner -- including the rundown you reference).

 

In FED, it's a delayed dead ball.

 

That might be the source of your confusion.

Yes, I'm sure that is the confusion on my end. I'm speaking on FED.

 

Follow-up question / hypothetical. If I call obstruction and give a safe signal, but the runner is confused and still thinks he's out and abandon's the base path (ie. head's toward dugout, while ball remains live because other runners in play) ... am I going to award him the next base, even if he walks all the way to the dugout, or at some point would that supercede the obstruction call because he left the playing field?

[noumpere]

Award the base.

[ArchAngel72]

If they start to Walk away Blow it dead and then make your ruling award the base.

Well that's what I would do in LL anyway..  stop the error before it gets there

 

 

[MadMax]

37 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

If I call obstruction and give a safe signal, but the runner is confused and still thinks he's out and abandon's the base path

You have a Runner in motion, and you're calling Obstruction (OBS). You point at it, and call / declare / bellow "That's obstruction!". Now, one of two things happen... 

1. Runner arrives at the base you've protected him to (now, he can proceed past that base on his own risk, but let's not get into that for this situational explanation). You judge the play being made on him. If safe, you signal safe (probably best to join it with a verbal). If out, you signal Out, followed immediately by "Time! I have (or "That was... ") Obstruction! You (Runner), that Base!" and award him the base award. 
2. Runner stops his motion, and returns back to a previous base. Once the ball is controlled and all play has ended, you call "Time! That was Obstruction! You (Runner), that Base!" and award him the base award, which in HS, is the next base from base last obtained / acquired. 

I mean, I get these are kids... but why would a kid think himself Out, and start heading towards the dugout?

[maven]

12 minutes ago, MadMax said:

I mean, I get these are kids... but why would a kid think himself Out, and start heading towards the dugout?

Objection: asked and answered.

[MadMax]

18 minutes ago, maven said:

Objection: asked and answered.

Fair point, I'm answering my own question. However, so too, why would an Obstruction call, with a Safe mechanic conjoined or following, be construed as an Out?? 

I fail to see what @RBIbaseball is envisioning. More to the point, the method / manner by which RBIbaseball is "calling" Obstruction is wrong, then.

[maven]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

However, so too, why would an Obstruction call, with a Safe mechanic conjoined or following, be construed as an Out?? 

That's what you see.

What the kid sees: ["Adult umpire yelling at me! Pointing at me! I must be out!"]

[JonnyCat]

5 hours ago, MadMax said:

If out, you signal Out, followed immediately by "Time! I have (or "That was... ") Obstruction! You (Runner), that Base!" and award him the base award. 

Why would you signal out, and then award a base?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't you just call time, and then award bases accordingly?

[MadMax]

I suppose if you were the Umpire calling OBS and a subsequent Out, you could... but what if your partner / another Umpire observed and called OBS, but the play upon that Runner became yours? Something like: 

• R1, with a hit to right field. PU rotates to 3B, while BU has the ball, and R1 to 2B. BU observes and calls F6 for OBS at 2B. Throw comes from F9 to F5 at 3B to apply a tag to R1, judged by PU. 
• R1 again, this time with a hit to left field. BU has to watch ball, but doesn't get a chance to see OBS occur once BR touches 1B. PU notices it out of his peripheral vision, seeing F3 entangle with BR after he rounds 1B. PU arrives near 3B, with the throw cut off and relayed to 2B, to make a play on BR.

Edited March 18, 2022 by MadMax
Mistyped PU where I meant BU. Bolded for notice.

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

I suppose if you were the Umpire calling OBS and a subsequent Out, you could... but what if your partner / another Umpire observed and called OBS, but the play upon that Runner became yours? Something like: 

• R1, with a hit to right field. PU rotates to 3B, while BU has the ball, and R1 to 2B. BU observes and calls F6 for OBS at 2B. Throw comes from F9 to F5 at 3B to apply a tag to R1, judged by PU. 
• R1 again, this time with a hit to left field. PU has to watch ball, but doesn't get a chance to see OBS occur once BR touches 1B. PU notices it out of his peripheral vision, seeing F3 entangle with BR after he rounds 1B. PU arrives near 3B, with the throw cut off and relayed to 2B, to make a play on BR.

For sure.

If I'm the calling umpire, then I'm not calling an out, and then awarding bases. If the obstructed runner is out, then I'm just calling time and awarding bases accordingly.

If I'm not the calling umpire, then yes, call the play as you see it, and then sort it out.

[Velho]

10 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

If I'm not the calling umpire, then yes, call the play as you see it, and then sort it out.

To pick this apart a bit: Is this always the case? What if you weren't the calling umpire but did completely catch everything about how/why your partner called OBS? 

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

To pick this apart a bit: Is this always the case? What if you weren't the calling umpire but did completely catch everything about how/why your partner called OBS? 

I think of the WS obstruction...PU (Hallion?) never signaled the runner out.

[Thunderheads]

33 minutes ago, Matt said:

I think of the WS obstruction...PU (Hallion?) never signaled the runner out.

St. Louis/Boston?

[JonnyCat]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

To pick this apart a bit: Is this always the case? What if you weren't the calling umpire but did completely catch everything about how/why your partner called OBS? 

When I wrote this reply, I was going to channel my inner MadMax and get into more detail about how to handle the play, but I didn't want to veer too far from the OP.

Anyway, If I wasn't the calling umpire, and I didn't see the obstruction or my partner making the call, then you just have to call the safe or out. Easy.

But if I did see it, I think I would be inclined to not make a call, and wait for my partner. I think the optics would be better to call time and then render awards, than to call an out and then have to reverse it.

Obviously in FED, obstruction is a minimum 1 base award. If I did see the obstruction call, then I would call time and award bases accordingly. Probably let the calling umpire award the bases.

But in OBR, Type 2 obstruction is not an automatic, so even if you see the obstruction, are you sure that your partner is going to award a base?

Either way, if I did see the obstruction, I would probably just call time, and then sort things out.

Others may feel different about it, and can weight in with their thoughts.

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

St. Louis/Boston?

Correct, 2013. Dana Demuth was the PU.

[johnnyg08]

FED is a bit of a hybrid...it's a "Type 2" mechanic with a "Type 1" minimum award. 

In the OP example of OBS in a rundown...FED game...call the obstruction and let the play continue. The defense could throw the ball away. If the runner is tagged out. Then call time & enforce the penalty. 

[RBIbaseball]

It may have been a little far fetched, but as was pointed out - these are kids.

That being said, I picked up on a few things mentioned through the discussion being had - so thanks to all.

On 3/19/2022 at 6:34 PM, johnnyg08 said:

FED is a bit of a hybrid...it's a "Type 2" mechanic with a "Type 1" minimum award. 

In the OP example of OBS in a rundown...FED game...call the obstruction and let the play continue. The defense could throw the ball away. If the runner is tagged out. Then call time & enforce the penalty. 

@johnnyg08 Let's say there is 1 out, R1 / R3.  F1 pickoff gets R1 in a rundown, and you have obstruction somewhere in that play, subsequently (whether it be immediately after or 5 throws later - I don't think matters??) R1 gets tagged out. Meanwhile, R3 is dancing down the baseline looking for an opportunity  to break for it. Am I going to stop play when R1 gets tagged out still, or do I let it continue because there is still plays to be had on R3?

If the answer is to let the play continue, what is the proper mechanic?  Original obstruction I'm pointing and calling obstruction, then on the tag I'm doing what?

On the other hand, if we make the ball dead on the tag of R1. Can we or should we award R3 home, and how do you handle that explanation ?

[johnnyg08]

Remember this...There's only one type of obstruction in FEd...FED obstruction carries a Type 1 award with a Type 2 mechanic. 

Obstruction is a defensive penalty. If they don't like the award, they shouldn't have obstructed. Award bases that will nullify the act....place runners accordingly. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

Remember this...There's only one type of obstruction in FEd...FED obstruction carries a Type 1 award with a Type 2 mechanic. 

Obstruction is a defensive penalty. If they don't like the award, they shouldn't have obstructed. Award bases that will nullify the act....place runners accordingly. 

With a minimum of one base (in FED)

[aaluck]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:49 PM, JonnyCat said:

Others may feel different about it, and can weight in with their thoughts.

I see what your saying but I have always done it as @MadMax stated originally.

Maybe I read the rule differently, but when I read it it seems you must call the out to enforce the obstruction in certain situations.  As an example, obstruction of the batter is ignored if the batter-runner reaches first and all other runners advance at least one base. 

The way I read that is he MUST be called out to enforce the obstruction.. at least on the batter/runner. Maybe I'm reading into it too much.  Also, I'm fine with not calling the out and enforcing the penalty, just not the way I do it. 

[Senor Azul]

From the FED definition (rule 2-22-1):  When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action…

·        Obstruction appears in the delayed dead ball table in rule 5 as item number 4 with no conditions or qualifiers

·        FED rule 5-1-2b—it is a delayed dead ball when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a batter or runner…

·        FED rule 5-1-3—The ball becomes dead when time is taken to make an award when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a runner…

2019 FED case book plays 8.3.2 A and D.

8.3.2 SITUATION A:  R2 and R1, when B3 beats out an infield hit. R2 advances to and past third toward home. In a rundown, F5 obstructs R2. However, R2 gets back to third safely and finds R1 there. F5 tags R1 with the ball. RULING:  Umpire shall call “Obstruction!” when the infraction by F5 occurs. At the conclusion of playing action, he declares the ball dead, then awards home to R2 and allows R1 to remain at third. When a runner is obstructed, the obstructed runner is awarded a minimum of one base beyond his position on base when the obstruction occurred.

8.3.2 SITUATION D:  With one out, R2 and R1. B4 hits ground ball directly to F1 who throws to F5 for the force on R2 at third. F5 then throws to F3 in time to put out B4. F6 holds R2, preventing him from advancing to third. RULING:  The umpire will call obstruction when it occurs, and then call time after runners have advanced as far as possible, which in this situation would probably be second for R1. R2 will then be awarded third. Because of the obstruction of F6, the out at first stands. B4’s out stands. B4 was not affected by the obstruction. B5 will come to bat with two outs and R2 is on third and R1 is on second base.

[johnnyg08]

On 4/4/2022 at 9:05 AM, noumpere said:

With a minimum of one base (in FED)

 

On 4/4/2022 at 7:50 AM, johnnyg08 said:

FED obstruction carries a Type 1 award with a Type 2 mechanic. 

I feel like I captured that...maybe not? 

[Thatsnotyou]

R2, no outs. Base hit to left. R2 is clearly obstructed, then barely thrown out at the plate. Immediately after making the tag at the plate, the catcher throws to 2nd base to try to retire the batter runner. 
 

We’re going to award R2 home, but when are we killing the play? Are we letting the action take place at 2nd? To me, end of playing action would be letting everything play out at 2nd, then circle back to the award at home, but I want to make sure that’s correct.