Defense thought it was 3 outs. NFHS Rules

[Guest BaseballLVR]

Hello umpires I was watching my sons first game of the season yesterday and an interesting situation arose. I believe the situation was B3, one out, but the defense had been saying two outs to each other for whatever reason. Batter struck out and the defensive coach started yelling "thats 3 lets go". Defense started leaving the field, meanwhile offensive coach is yelling at B3 who was now returning to dugout to go and touch home, B3 touches home. During this time the umpires stayed on the field for about 10 seconds during the confusion but then started walking off the field thinking there were 3 outs too. Now I'm not sure if PU called time at any point during this confusion but I certainly didn't hear or see anything to indicate that. After a few minutes double checking with the book keeper and reviewing the last inning it was determined that there were indeed only 2 outs. We resumed the inning with B3 back at 3rd base, with two outs. 

Does the run score? I think so, although I'm not sure how the umpire calling time at any point during the confusion would effect the outcome. 

Would the umpire be wrong to call "time" if he didn't know how many outs there were while a runner was still advancing? I feel like he should have at least waited for the action of the play to complete if he indeed was confused.

Is it the responsibility of the umpire to interject when the defense is telling each other the incorrect count, or should he wait until asked by a player/coach to give this information?

[beerguy55]

Letter of rule the run should score, but there is some contextual element here - depending on the level of play there is room and opportunity for a teachable moment for everyone, and maybe the "fair play" move is to put R3 back on third base and continue with two out.  (also keep in mind, maybe the defense thought there was two out because an umpire mistakenly told them there was).   But, in most scenarios, the run scores and that becomes the teachable moment for the defense.

If there's a play in progress the umpire shouldn't be calling time to verify the number of outs, or really for any reason (barring significant injury)...let playing action stop and then figure it out.  Mistakes happen though, especially in mass confusion, and even experienced umps will instinctively call "time" when they don't know what the Hell is going on.  Even if the umpire killed the play inappropriately, there is some latitude here to determine/judge that the run would have scored anyway.

No, the umpire should not be interjecting if the defense is giving each other incorrect information (heck, maybe it's a ploy to make the offense THINK they're confused)...the exception would be if the ump explicitly told them the wrong thing, then he should correct his mistake.

[SH0102]

34 minutes ago, Guest BaseballLVR said:

Hello umpires I was watching my sons first game of the season yesterday and an interesting situation arose. I believe the situation was B3, one out, but the defense had been saying two outs to each other for whatever reason. Batter struck out and the defensive coach started yelling "thats 3 lets go". Defense started leaving the field, meanwhile offensive coach is yelling at B3 who was now returning to dugout to go and touch home, B3 touches home. During this time the umpires stayed on the field for about 10 seconds during the confusion but then started walking off the field thinking there were 3 outs too. Now I'm not sure if PU called time at any point during this confusion but I certainly didn't hear or see anything to indicate that. After a few minutes double checking with the book keeper and reviewing the last inning it was determined that there were indeed only 2 outs. We resumed the inning with B3 back at 3rd base, with two outs. 

Does the run score? I think so, although I'm not sure how the umpire calling time at any point during the confusion would effect the outcome. 

Would the umpire be wrong to call "time" if he didn't know how many outs there were while a runner was still advancing? I feel like he should have at least waited for the action of the play to complete if he indeed was confused.

Is it the responsibility of the umpire to interject when the defense is telling each other the incorrect count, or should he wait until asked by a player/coach to give this information?

Interesting situation...you said NFHS rules, was it HS?  Or a level that just happens to play with that rule set?  Just curious, does not matter much to the answer.  

Already some good points mentioned in first response...I will just add that I agree that umpires must have been as confused as beerguy implied because from an umpires point of view, only 2 possible scenarios arose....neither of which should lead to time being called.  Either the defense is correct and the inning is over, in which there is no reason to call time, the inning is over.  Or the defense is wrong and play continues with R3 coming home, again, no reason to call time.

The one thing missing from your story was where R3 went...if he got all the way in the dugout, he could "theoretically" be called out for abandonment, so in this case, it would make total sense to put him back at third and not count the run.  R3 can't come out of the dugout and run to home.  Now, if he was leaving but didn't get there, absolutely he can score and should score.

I agree...my best GUESS is either the umpires are inexperienced and just called time because THEY were confused, OR one of the umpires had told the defense there were 2 outs, and as such, it is the umpires responsibility to correct their error that put one team at a disadvantage.  The only part that makes me think the latter is not what happened is the coach said 2 outs from the dugout...I doubt he asked across the field how many outs there were.  But if BU told pitcher or SS or whomever "there are 2 outs", then you have to correct your error and re-set with runner back at 3rd.

[Senor Azul]

When teams begin a new half inning before three outs are logged, the scorekeeper is specifically directed by rule 9.01(b)(2) to immediately tell the umpire. It is the only proactive duty the official scorekeeper has—(and, yes, I know the OP tells us the game is high school)

2019 OBR rule 9.01(b)(2) If the teams change sides before three men are put out, the Official Scorer shall immediately inform the umpire-in-chief of the mistake.

The official scorekeeper is otherwise directed not to insert himself into the game. In a sense this makes the official scorer an additional umpire, at least in this regard. Fortunately, this rarely happens.

[Senor Azul]

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  When the defensive team reacts to an erroneous statement of the number of outs (“two are out” when only one has been retired), the resulting play stands. Both teams are responsible to know the count and the number of outs.

2010 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 19:  Bases are loaded with two outs and a 1-1 count on B6. The scoreboard has a 0-2 count. The plate umpire gives the correct count and verbally states “1-1.” B6 swings and misses the next pitch to make the count 1-2, but F2, thinking it is strike three, tosses the ball toward the mound as the infield players begin to leave the diamond. The third-base coach has his runners running and all of them cross home plate. The visiting defensive head coach protests that the runs should not score since the scoreboard was in error and it put them at a disadvantage. RULING: The umpires did not err on the play and both teams are responsible to know the count and the number of outs. The play stands and all three runs count. (10-2-3g)

[Guest BaseballLVR]

So in this case if the defense or coach is incorrectly telling each other two outs, even though there is only one out, is it the responsibility of the umpire to interject and correct them if he hears them? Or would this be considered coaching or assisting, Should he only give the outs if he is explicitly asked?

[SH0102]

7 hours ago, Guest BaseballLVR said:

So in this case if the defense or coach is incorrectly telling each other two outs, even though there is only one out, is it the responsibility of the umpire to interject and correct them if he hears them? Or would this be considered coaching or assisting, Should he only give the outs if he is explicitly asked?

I would only give the outs if asked.  It isn’t preventative umpiring when you’re purposely preventing one team from having an advantage they would otherwise have/get.

A simple “sir how many outs” would solve all their problems.  If they want to be wrong and never ask, then oh well.

On another note, if you have 2 or more umpires working game, can watch their signals as they signal outs to one another on every batter when someone is on base.

[maven]

17 hours ago, Guest BaseballLVR said:

Batter struck out and the defensive coach started yelling "thats 3 lets go". Defense started leaving the field, meanwhile offensive coach is yelling at R3 who was now returning to dugout to go and touch home, R3 touches home.

I've edited this bit: the runner on 3B is designated R3, not B3.

We could score R3, or we could just as easily call him out for abandonment. Either one will probably ruin the game, so we should do either one with great caution. A third option would be to reset after he'd scored, but we have no rules basis for doing that.

Instead, why not just say, "Time! That's TWO outs!" as soon as we process that the defense is trying to leave the field? That's not coaching, it's preventive umpiring. Specifically, it prevents having to make either of two unpalatable calls. R3 goes back, defense stays put, and we play on with nobody particularly put out by it.

And if the question is, what should the umpires do after they've screwed up, I'll give the answer I usually give. Don't screw up in the first place: how hard is it to pay attention to the outs? There's no mechanic for rectifying such screwups.

The best they could do in fairness is probably to unscore the run, put R3 back, and then make up some justification for it for the pissed O-coach. That avoids both scoring R3 and calling him out. This, too, is likely to ruin the game (and, if applicable, their ratings).

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, maven said:

Instead, why not just say, "Time! That's TWO outs!" as soon as we process that the defense is trying to leave the field? That's not coaching, it's preventive umpiring. 

Disagree. I'm not saving a team from themselves.

Plus, while I would never see this particular play occur at the levels I work (at least not without batters getting bruised,) I, as a casual observer, have seen at least one "creative" team deliberately pretend there were three out in an attempt to coax a runner off a base. Kinda like the "wrong ball" trick in football. 

[noumpere]

I have seen a team successfully try this to get a runner to run hard on a fly ball for an easy appeal out to end the inning.

[Senor Azul]

To our guest BaseballLVR, as I stated earlier, players are expected to know the game situation (the count and number of outs)—it’s part of the game. With that in mind, umpires are not expected to be human scoreboards, especially on fields that have a well managed scoreboard. On fields with no scoreboards we might give the number of outs once in a great while. And umpires regularly communicate the number of outs with each other by a set of standard hand signals when there are runners.

Of course, umpires are supposed to be approachable and if asked we are supposed to answer.

[Richvee]

If I’m on the bases… and only on the bases, if I hear infielders yelling “ Two outs” when there’s one, I may, if the opportunity is there,  turn  my head towards a middle infielder. If he happens to look my way I may discreetly hold up one finger. I’m not going to yell It out… it may be a set play. But  if I could head off a potential $h* t storm by alerting the defense they're mistaken, I’ll do it.  However it sure won’t be obvious. … unless, of course, I’m asked. 

[LMSANS]

When I played, back in the Stone Age, we had a play on defense that if there was R3 and 1 out, if the batter strikes out, I (F2) would roll the ball between the mound and the baseline of our dugout. Everyone would start to leave as if there were 3 outs. If R3 was alert he would head home. F1 would pick up the ball and throw it to me for the tag. In 3 varsity years, I think it worked 4 out of 6 times.

moving forward...I'm working the bases in a JV game. There's one out, R3, def coach yells a key word and says there's 2 outs (there's only 1). Because of my experience, I know what is coming. My partner calls time and announces there is only one out. Def coach was very upset with my partner.

It's a designed play for the defense. Sounds like the defense screwed the pooch...run scored.

[Senor Azul]

According to the 2016 BRD the FED rules book has had a rule against verbal obstruction since 1989. I am not sure what time frame you are referring to, Mr. LMSANS, but since 1989 the play you told us about would have been illegal. It would also be illegal for the plays that Mr. Matt and Mr. noumpere referred to in their anecdotes if the play took place in a high school game.

Also from the 2016 BRD (section 375, pp. 250-51):  Verbal obstruction is treated the same as physical obstruction. PENALTY:  The obstructed runner is awarded one base in advance of his position on base. (2-22-1; 2.22.1a)

FED Official Interpretation:  Rumble:  When a defensive player lies and tells a runner that a passed ball was a foul ball, the fielder is guilty of verbal obstruction.

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  Any verbal decoy, such as “I’ve got it,” is obstruction. (Website 2001 #14)

2001 SITUATION 14: With runners on first and second and one out, the batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop. The second baseman calls "I got it" and acts as if it is a pop-up. The runners stay at their respective bases and a double play is made, second to first. RULING: This is verbal obstruction. Runners will be awarded third and second. There are two outs since the out on the batter-runner will stand. (2-22-1; 8-3-2)

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If a defensive player tries to confuse an opponent by yelling “Go!” to a runner tagging, the umpire declares verbal obstruction if the affected runner reacts to the opponent’s attempt to confuse. PENALTY:  The affected runner is awarded one base. The umpire warns the player committing the act. (Website 2004 #12)

SITUATION 12: With R3 on third, B2 hits a fly ball to the outfield. As the runner on third tags, the defensive coach (in the third-base dugout) yells, “Go, go, go,” to the runner tagging. R3, as a consequence, leaves the base before the catch and must return to tag the base. RULING: This is verbal obstruction. At the end of playing action, U1 will award R3 home due to the obstruction. U1 will also warn the coach that his actions are not in accordance with fair play. (2-22-1, 3-3-1g-4, 8-3-2)

[Guest BaseballLVR]

Senor Azul, only issue I could see is that the intent in those situations is clearly to cause confusion with the offense by mimicing the coach or one of their teammates. I know kids get the count wrong all the time, as mentioned in my example, so how could you ever know the intent is to confuse the offense instead of genuinely not knowing.

[Guest Little Ott]

This is a great question and you folks have provided a lot thoughtful answers.  Thanks to all of you for chiming in.  I've been a Rules Interpreter for a very large city's public school league for a decade.  I check in to this site every month or so looking for issues that I can share with our umpires.  The number of issues this question and your answers brings up are tremendous and I'll pass along a lot of them.  Thanks to you all for the time you put in here.  You do more good than you know.

My take -

I've lost the number of outs during games like we all have.  When I hear a player shout, "2 outs" when I believe there is only one out, I immediately check with my partner using the standard hand signals.  If I find out that I am right and the player is wrong, if I am on the bases, I'll turn my head, make eye contact and silently mouth the words "one out," to whichever player is spouting the bad information.  If I have the plate, I'll just lean forward and quietly tell F2.  Between my partner and I flashing signs and I informing the players involved, I've done enough to alert everyone on the field what the real situation is.  What they do with that information is up to them... except...

As Senior Azul says, verbal obstruction is not legal in NFHS so if the players I just informed of the situation continue their ruse, then I know I have a verbal obstruction call waiting to get dropped if the runner(s) bite on the illegal bait.  In an OBR game, what ever happens, happens - unless I'm working with very young players and inexperienced coaches when I'll jump in and let everybody in earshot know the situation to prevent a blow-up.

Because I work games from D1 all the way down to 9-year-olds - sometimes in the same week - I have found that taking the temperature on the field before the game even begins has let me avoid all sorts of shenanigans and trouble and doing so lets me call an game that is appropriate to the age and skill level.

Thanks again - Spring is coming.  Enjoy it.
 

[LMSANS]

On 2/25/2022 at 6:09 PM, Senor Azul said:

According to the 2016 BRD the FED rules book has had a rule against verbal obstruction since 1989. I am not sure what time frame you are referring to, Mr. LMSANS, but since 1989 the play you told us about would have been illegal. It would also be illegal for the plays that Mr. Matt and Mr. noumpere referred to in their anecdotes if the play took place in a high school game.

Also from the 2016 BRD (section 375, pp. 250-51):  Verbal obstruction is treated the same as physical obstruction. PENALTY:  The obstructed runner is awarded one base in advance of his position on base. (2-22-1; 2.22.1a)

FED Official Interpretation:  Rumble:  When a defensive player lies and tells a runner that a passed ball was a foul ball, the fielder is guilty of verbal obstruction.

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  Any verbal decoy, such as “I’ve got it,” is obstruction. (Website 2001 #14)

2001 SITUATION 14: With runners on first and second and one out, the batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop. The second baseman calls "I got it" and acts as if it is a pop-up. The runners stay at their respective bases and a double play is made, second to first. RULING: This is verbal obstruction. Runners will be awarded third and second. There are two outs since the out on the batter-runner will stand. (2-22-1; 8-3-2)

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If a defensive player tries to confuse an opponent by yelling “Go!” to a runner tagging, the umpire declares verbal obstruction if the affected runner reacts to the opponent’s attempt to confuse. PENALTY:  The affected runner is awarded one base. The umpire warns the player committing the act. (Website 2004 #12)

SITUATION 12: With R3 on third, B2 hits a fly ball to the outfield. As the runner on third tags, the defensive coach (in the third-base dugout) yells, “Go, go, go,” to the runner tagging. R3, as a consequence, leaves the base before the catch and must return to tag the base. RULING: This is verbal obstruction. At the end of playing action, U1 will award R3 home due to the obstruction. U1 will also warn the coach that his actions are not in accordance with fair play. (2-22-1, 3-3-1g-4, 8-3-2)

As I said, the Stone Age, early 70s, so we're good there.

I have a little trouble calling verbal obstruction on this scenario now. I don't think the situations presented are on point.

Are we saying the team calling 2-out when there is actually 1-out is verbal obstruction?

[Senor Azul]

Reiterating what I have already posted--verbal obstruction must affect the play before the umpire may penalize it.

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If a defensive player tries to confuse an opponent by yelling “Go!” to a runner tagging, the umpire declares verbal obstruction if the affected runner reacts to the opponent’s attempt to confuse. PENALTY:  The affected runner is awarded one base. The umpire warns the player committing the act. (Website 2004 #12)

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  Any verbal decoy, such as “I’ve got it,” is obstruction. (Website 2001 #14)

In high school ball neither the offense nor the defense may say anything that might confuse the other team. In addition to rule 2-22-1 already cited in this thread, the FED also has rule 2-21-1 which covers verbal interference. For example, the third base coach or players on the bench cannot yell something like throw it to third to confuse the fielder when the play is at another base. Like most things it comes down to umpire judgment as to whether the verbal “aid” by the offense affected (confused) the defense.

As for verbal obstruction in your scenario if it were to happen nowadays, I think your BU would have saved you a possible ****storm by calling time and announcing the number of outs. You, yourself, said you recognized the designed play so the judgment aspect is covered and that you would allow a coach to announce misinformation in your game. I would not—I would call time and first confirm with the official scorer the number of outs and then announce the correct number.

[HokieUmp]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If a defensive player tries to confuse an opponent by yelling “Go!” to a runner tagging, the umpire declares verbal obstruction if the affected runner reacts to the opponent’s attempt to confuse. PENALTY:  The affected runner is awarded one base. The umpire warns the player committing the act. (Website 2004 #12)

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  Any verbal decoy, such as “I’ve got it,” is obstruction. (Website 2001 #14)

In high school ball neither the offense nor the defense may say anything that might confuse the other team. In addition to rule 2-22-1 already cited in this thread, the FED also has rule 2-21-1 which covers verbal interference. For example, the third base coach or players on the bench cannot yell something like throw it to third to confuse the fielder when the play is at another base. Like most things it comes down to umpire judgment as to whether the verbal “aid” by the offense affected (confused) the defense.

My thing with this is the logistics of it all.  Perhaps the FED rulebook authors are unaware, but there's a lot of ...... noise ...... when a ball is put into play.  Maybe it's just *my* hearing that's not helping, and/or my indifference to stuff outside the lines, but I haven't been "head on a swivel"-ing this sort of stuff.  Am I incorrect on this?  I mean, the Hopkins thing about "I got it" has happened a non-zero number of times at my games, to include at least once I can recall this year already.

[Donny7]

Just to clarify... Listed as one of the possible remedies was to call R3 out for Abandonment. Unfortunately, that's not possible in Fed.

The player must enter the dugout before being called out. The OP states that he was returning to the dugout. If he entered it, he is Out.

[ousafe]

13 minutes ago, Donny7 said:

Just to clarify... Listed as one of the possible remedies was to call R3 out for Abandonment. Unfortunately, that's not possible in Fed.

The player must enter the dugout before being called out. The OP states that he was returning to the dugout. If he entered it, he is Out.

Disagree. You are thinking of 8-4-1i (abandoning prior to 1st base), but I believe the applicable rule is 8-4-2p (abandoning after 1st base): [runner is out when] "after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base..."

[Donny7]

On 2/28/2022 at 1:40 AM, ousafe said:

Disagree. You are thinking of 8-4-1i (abandoning prior to 1st base), but I believe the applicable rule is 8-4-2p (abandoning after 1st base): [runner is out when] "after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base..."

Thank You ousafe... You are absolutely correct. That is very good to know. I and many others have real issues with not having the legal ability to call (an untagged or un-played upon at 1B) BR out until he enters the dugout, prior to 1B.  

[Guest Jim]

Regarding NFHS obstruction, keep in mind that accidental obstruction is treated the same as if it were intentional.

That's all the justification you need to call time and "correct" the defensive player/coach. They'll stop arguing when you point out that their "trick play" will only hurt their team's cause.

It's still entirely possible for a team to pull such a play off; just act like there are three outs without actually saying anything.  The "slowly roll the ball to the mound" play from a few posts up is a good example.