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16 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

The throw being offline or not offline absolutely matters - it can’t just be dismissed. Let’s say the throw beats him by 20 feet - but it’s 10 feet away from the plate. And it’s a race to the plate. What you’re saying here is that he’s out because the throw beat him by 20 feet.

I also don’t understand your argument that different throws would have been made. But if they were, they likely would have been more rushed and perhaps worse. 
 

You’re bending over backwards to excuse the defense here when they are guilty of obstruction and the guy is out at the plate by a hair. 

 

I am not bending over backwards to protect the defense

I am going by the way OBS was explained to me.

Its up to my judgement to understand if the runner would have reached the next base safely if he was unobstructed and or the one after that.  I am purely looking at that going would that runner have crossed the plate with ZERO chance of a play being made on him from the time he was obstructed.  Everything after that makes no difference on that particular moment because we now have a tangent in the time line.

Reason being 

Lets say the runner rounds 3rd slightly off his line and he steps on the bag and slightly slips now because the fielder pushed him off the corner where he would have had good traction.  Do I now count that stumble into the equation?  NO  its at the time of the obstruction should I judge he would have made it to HP and been safe.

I'm saying in my mind what I saw that if OBS was not there, there may have still been a play on him that to me is close enough I cannot say he would have absolutely been safe at home.

That's how I see it  to me its like 75% he would have been safe 25% not.. Thus  he gets third anything else is on him..

Now again all I am seeing is what's in the video..  Maybe if I was there in person observing the speed of the runners in person I would say YES he would have been home safely 100%..

right now my vision and vision only from a video is telling me mehh there maybe something there of a play at the plate still.. So I cannot in good faith say he would be safe in every and all outcomes of further play.

 

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2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

I am going by the way OBS was explained to me.

I've been taught the inverse - I should only get an out if I'm 100% sure he would have been out, had the obstruction not occurred. Since the defense erred, benefit of the doubt goes to the offense.  Since (as you say) there's a very reasonable chance he would have been safe, absent the obstruction, I have him safe.

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3 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I am not bending over backwards to protect the defense

I am going by the way OBS was explained to me.

Its up to my judgement to understand if the runner would have reached the next base safely if he was unobstructed and or the one after that.  I am purely looking at that going would that runner have crossed the plate with ZERO chance of a play being made on him from the time he was obstructed.  Everything after that makes no difference on that particular moment because we now have a tangent in the time line.

Reason being 

Lets say the runner rounds 3rd slightly off his line and he steps on the bag and slightly slips now because the fielder pushed him off the corner where he would have had good traction.  Do I now count that stumble into the equation?  NO  its at the time of the obstruction should I judge he would have made it to HP and been safe.

I'm saying in my mind what I saw that if OBS was not there, there may have still been a play on him that to me is close enough I cannot say he would have absolutely been safe at home.

That's how I see it  to me its like 75% he would have been safe 25% not.. Thus  he gets third anything else is on him..

Now again all I am seeing is what's in the video..  Maybe if I was there in person observing the speed of the runners in person I would say YES he would have been home safely 100%..

right now my vision and vision only from a video is telling me mehh there maybe something there of a play at the plate still.. So I cannot in good faith say he would be safe in every and all outcomes of further play.

 

I'm not piling on, I admire someone who is willing to stick to their understanding of the rules and not be swayed... but, there was a wrong committed by the defense that should be awarded to the offense.

  1. You say you would protect him to 3B, but the runner made it to 3B regardless, so you haven't awarded anything yet and you haven't punished the defense for their infraction either.
  2. Yes, the runner chose to go home or was sent home by their coach; however, the bang-bang play at the plate was only possible because he was slowed down by F6. 

In spite of an offline and low relay throw from F5 (because he had to rush it or he would not have had any chance at all), F2 slaps the tag down for a very close play at the plate and PU calls our runner out on a play that could have truly went either way even if there was no OBS by F6  ---- but, OBS did occur (we all agree it did, there is just some differing of opinion on how to award it) and now we need to penalize the defense for their infraction. If the play was that close at the plate and he's out by a hair due to an amazing relay, catch & tag by F2 at the plate - then do you honestly believe that if R2 was allowed a half-step or two more (it's more likely he would have covered much more distance than a few feet) that he would not have scored had he not been bumped by F6?

Something else to think about, how many guys at this level would not score on a hit to LF given a running start/lead off from 2B?  There's a reason it's called scoring position once you reach 2nd base. If a ball leaves the infield in MLB, HS, Babe Ruth, LL, etc. - how many times does an average runner not score from 2B barring OBS?  I can tell you they will score far more often than not barring a very good LF who made a very good read on the ball and a strong & accurate relay. In my personal experience,  I'd guess 75-80% of average HS runners would score on this play without any OBS, so I'd have to believe that OBS on this particular play would have resulted in a run scored as well if F6 hadn't gotten in his way.

If you truly believe that he's only covered to 3B and he was only out because he pushed it and tried to score, then there's nothing more I can say. 

 

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Many moons ago, one of the the more thoughtful and experienced members of this community, @JonnyCat, offered the group some insight that I have fallen back on many times. This play reminds me of that sage advice:

Use the rules book to solve problems rather than create them.

By rule, R2 is protected to 3B. Any further award is judgment. As many might agree, perspective affects judgment in almost every case. When in doubt, however those words from the past come rushing forward to provide clarity. The rules allow us to judge R2 to be out at HP because he was only entitled to 3B. While that is the letter of the rule, it also provides for judgment to grant further awards. A call of out and declining to award home is certainly supported by rule, however, that may cause more problems than it solves.

BU does not strike me as the strongest umpire either. His lackadaisical pre-pitch posture, lack of an obstruction call, inattention to keeping his chest to the ball, and failure to keep his head on a swivel particularly when F2 is throwing a back pick to 2B all suggest that he may not even have considered, let alone call, obstruction on R2.

This video would be great resource to use in an intermediate training class for the 2 man system. There is a lot to be learned here! 

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7 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

I am not bending over backwards to protect the defense

I am going by the way OBS was explained to me.

Its up to my judgement to understand if the runner would have reached the next base safely if he was unobstructed and or the one after that.  I am purely looking at that going would that runner have crossed the plate with ZERO chance of a play being made on him from the time he was obstructed.  Everything after that makes no difference on that particular moment because we now have a tangent in the time line.

Reason being 

Lets say the runner rounds 3rd slightly off his line and he steps on the bag and slightly slips now because the fielder pushed him off the corner where he would have had good traction.  Do I now count that stumble into the equation?  NO  its at the time of the obstruction should I judge he would have made it to HP and been safe.

I'm saying in my mind what I saw that if OBS was not there, there may have still been a play on him that to me is close enough I cannot say he would have absolutely been safe at home.

That's how I see it  to me its like 75% he would have been safe 25% not.. Thus  he gets third anything else is on him..

Now again all I am seeing is what's in the video..  Maybe if I was there in person observing the speed of the runners in person I would say YES he would have been home safely 100%..

right now my vision and vision only from a video is telling me mehh there maybe something there of a play at the plate still.. So I cannot in good faith say he would be safe in every and all outcomes of further play.

 

You seriously need to reconsider your thought process…you are saying you need to be convinced with 100% certainty that he should be awarded home…what you need to be convinced is with 100% certainty he would have been out no matter what.  You can’t think about well the throw would have been this or that..

he was obstructed by defense and you want to reward them with an out on a close play? He needs to be out by a LOT to not award him home.  You’re giving the benefit of the doubt to the defense here, “well I think he would have still been out” when their violation should be “well he may have been safe so he is safe”.  
 

unless you are 99% certain he would be out even without Obs, you award him home, otherwise you may as well wear a sign around your neck at your next game that says “you may as well obstruct every runner bc most of the time you’re going to get away with it”

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This also isn’t a “must be 100% convinced he’d be safe” situation. You’re removing the obstruction. 

Put another way - without the obstruction, are you 100% sure he’s still out at the plate? I doubt it. THAT’S the burden of proof needed. 
 

The benefit of the doubt must go to the offense here. You’re looking at it the wrong way - you’re basically penalizing the offense for running home and being out on a banger. 

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I understand the logic if R2 stopped at third and you had to decide whether to award home -- in your judgement / viewing he would not have reached home.

 

We are allowed to consider post obstruction evidence to help with the decision -- and in the OP we have it.

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14 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I understand the logic if R2 stopped at third and you had to decide whether to award home -- in your judgement / viewing he would not have reached home.

 

We are allowed to consider post obstruction evidence to help with the decision -- and in the OP we have it.

And that's just it ...... thanks for this @noumpere ....   If he stops, we're all good, he's going to get 3rd regardless and makes the job easier.   This play is where we make the big bucks!   And, the ensuing argument coming from the defensive coach is an easy one to handle .... WAY easier than explaining to the offensive coach why you did NOT award him home (in the OP).

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Once upon a time I was the BU and had a very similar. 

I called OBS pointed it and then there was a banger at the plate. My partner (more senior than me) called him out. I called time and spoke to my partner thinking he didn't see my OBS call. I 'tell him the runner was obstructed by F6 and he should be awarded the run. 

He got on his high horse and stated that the runner would only be awarded 3rd. He also reminded me he'd been doing this for much longer than I had.

I let him know the rule was a minimum of the base he was advancing to and umpire digression beyond that. Because it was a banger IMO we should award the run. 

He was adamant  and was not going to change his mind. 

I also think the length of time we spent discussing it wasn't good optics in the situation either. The offensive coach had an even longer discussion with me because he saw me point and call it. 

Even after the game I pulled out the rule book and read the rule to him he couldn't admit he'd blown it and still denied. 

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57 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

And that's just it ...... thanks for this @noumpere ....   If he stops, we're all good, he's going to get 3rd regardless and makes the job easier.   This play is where we make the big bucks!   And, the ensuing argument coming from the defensive coach is an easy one to handle .... WAY easier than explaining to the offensive coach why you did NOT award him home (in the OP).

A little opposite to my last post.

When I was coming up the ranks I had a guy I really looked up to I was PU he was BU. We had an OBS he called an pointed the hell out of it, but never called time in accordance with the DDB. In the post game he called it preventive umpiring. He just always called it loud and forcefully enough that the players would assume it was a dead ball and things would sort themself out much easier from there. 

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4 minutes ago, Umpire in Chief said:

Once upon a time I was the BU and had a very similar. 

I called OBS pointed it and then there was a banger at the plate. My partner (more senior than me) called him out. I called time and spoke to my partner thinking he didn't see my OBS call. I 'tell him the runner was obstructed by F6 and he should be awarded the run. 

He got on his high horse and stated that the runner would only be awarded 3rd. He also reminded me he'd been doing this for much longer than I had.

I let him know the rule was a minimum of the base he was advancing to and umpire digression beyond that. Because it was a banger IMO we should award the run. 

He was adamant  and was not going to change his mind. 

I also think the length of time we spent discussing it wasn't good optics in the situation either. The offensive coach had an even longer discussion with me because he saw me point and call it. 

Even after the game I pulled out the rule book and read the rule to him he couldn't admit he'd blown it and still denied. 

VERY SAD .... this story right here is THE REASON coaches hate us!  Warren's partner IS THE REASON!  This kind of stuff perpetuates itself, and puts us on the chopping block for no reason! :no: 

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1 hour ago, Umpire in Chief said:

Once upon a time I was the BU and had a very similar. 

I called OBS pointed it and then there was a banger at the plate. My partner (more senior than me) called him out. I called time and spoke to my partner thinking he didn't see my OBS call. I 'tell him the runner was obstructed by F6 and he should be awarded the run. 

He got on his high horse and stated that the runner would only be awarded 3rd. He also reminded me he'd been doing this for much longer than I had.

I let him know the rule was a minimum of the base he was advancing to and umpire digression beyond that. Because it was a banger IMO we should award the run. 

He was adamant  and was not going to change his mind. 

I also think the length of time we spent discussing it wasn't good optics in the situation either. The offensive coach had an even longer discussion with me because he saw me point and call it. 

Even after the game I pulled out the rule book and read the rule to him he couldn't admit he'd blown it and still denied. 

But he didn't blow it. It was umpire judgement and he judged on it. End of story. I hope you backed him up to that coach.

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

VERY SAD .... this story right here is THE REASON coaches hate us!  Warren's partner IS THE REASON!  This kind of stuff perpetuates itself, and puts us on the chopping block for no reason! :no: 

So you would throw your partner under the bus for a close judgement call? To a coach?

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4 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

And that's just it ...... thanks for this @noumpere ....   If he stops, we're all good, he's going to get 3rd regardless and makes the job easier.   This play is where we make the big bucks!   And, the ensuing argument coming from the defensive coach is an easy one to handle .... WAY easier than explaining to the offensive coach why you did NOT award him home (in the OP).

I had a play like this in the state finals.  R2 stopped at third.  I left him there -- F7 was charging and made a strong throw right to the plate.  Change those last two facts and I might have awarded home.

 

 

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1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

But he didn't blow it. It was umpire judgement and he judged on it. End of story. I hope you backed him up to that coach.

1. you weren't there, Warren was.  2.  99,999% of everyone agrees that this play is "award home" 3.  Blow it? Maybe not, ... BAD JUDGEMENT, ... very!

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Travel game, 12 or 13 year old's, field with no fence.

Batter crushes one to right field which of course gets past F9. B/R is rounding 1st when F3 obstructs him (in the way, makes the runner veer around... you know the kind) so I point/call the OBS. Since EVRYONE is watching F9 run after the ball, I kept pointing to the infraction well until the B/R was almost to 3rd. He rounds and is going for home when a great throw and a relay get the ball to F2 for an absolute banger of a play.

Partner does his thing and bangs the out.

I come up big: TIME TIME TIME. THAT is obstruction, pointing to 1st base. Partner and I awarded home.

Could we have just protected him to 2nd? Of course... but the point of the rule is to remove the act of obstruction, not reward the offense for their infraction.

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2 hours ago, agdz59 said:

But he didn't blow it. It was umpire judgement and he judged on it. End of story. I hope you backed him up to that coach.

IMO he did blow it by failing to consider that the protection could extend past 3rd. IF he said he got me on the OBS but judged it not a factor. I probably would have just agreed to disagree with him.

As for the coach I didn't throw him under the bus, I just told him the runner was guaranteed 3rd and anything beyond that was up to the calling umpire. 

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Clearly he has no intention of learning the rule and when this happens in his game, he will be that adamant HPU that leaves everyone shaking their heads (except the savvy shortstop who got away with making the runner go around him, he just learned a new trick!)

I just re-watched the video and freezed the video at the moment the catcher catches the relay throw.  The runner is already sliding.  How on Earth could you say that is not a close play?

If I was his coach, I am getting tossed

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On 1/14/2022 at 8:41 AM, Umpire in Chief said:

Once upon a time I was the BU and had a very similar. 

I called OBS pointed it and then there was a banger at the plate. My partner (more senior than me) called him out. I called time and spoke to my partner thinking he didn't see my OBS call. I 'tell him the runner was obstructed by F6 and he should be awarded the run. 

He got on his high horse and stated that the runner would only be awarded 3rd. He also reminded me he'd been doing this for much longer than I had.

I let him know the rule was a minimum of the base he was advancing to and umpire digression beyond that. Because it was a banger IMO we should award the run. 

He was adamant  and was not going to change his mind. 

I also think the length of time we spent discussing it wasn't good optics in the situation either. The offensive coach had an even longer discussion with me because he saw me point and call it. 

Even after the game I pulled out the rule book and read the rule to him he couldn't admit he'd blown it and still denied. 

I’ll generally always eat the (heated) coach convo, even if it’s not technically mine - I won’t throw it at the other umpire, especially if he’s less experienced than I am. But here? I’m re-directing that coach to your partner. Let him figure it out. 

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i kind of figure provided wally the whale is not the runner, and going full speed from 3rd to home you just compare it to a runner that can run the 100 yard in 10 seconds, or 10 yards, every second the runner is held up somewhere on the field.

the cutout is a like 12 feet from the front corner of home, yeh yeh extra 8 inches to the back corner, so every 1/10 of one second you take is 1 yard, so just a minor 1/2 (.5) of a second delay takes off 5 yards or 15 feet away from the runner (which is beyond the home plate cutout going up the 3rd base line).

so it doesnt take much to slow a guy down and a catcher with the ball waiting at home and runner at the beginning of the cutout, that is not a bang bang play, but the cutout is as far as you get (closest to home as you can get) if you are held up by just .4 of a second(but if everyone says it is bang bang, then ok it is) but batters box on in or 4.6-5 feet on in yes, or less than .2-.1 tenths of a second in real time. just dont blink.

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So this an an Interesting side bar. The base umpire calls the OBS, PU makes an out call at the plate. Time is called, the two get  together.  BU says he called OBS and in his judgement R1 would have scored had there been no OBS. PU says I think he’s out even with no OBS. Who has the final say? (Assuming 2 good umpires where one isn’t pulling a “ I’ve been doing this for 20 years what I say goes attitude). 

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11 hours ago, Richvee said:

So this an an Interesting side bar. The base umpire calls the OBS, PU makes an out call at the plate. Time is called, the two get  together.  BU says he called OBS and in his judgement R1 would have scored had there been no OBS. PU says I think he’s out even with no OBS. Who has the final say? (Assuming 2 good umpires where one isn’t pulling a “ I’ve been doing this for 20 years what I say goes attitude). 

The same as any other play where two umpires have different calls: UIC (usually, but not always, PU) decides.

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Mr. Richvee, it is written into every rule set that one umpire cannot overrule another. The principle I was taught is that umpires can and should confer but ultimately it is the calling umpire’s decision. Here’s how Hunter Wendelstedt puts it in his 2013 WRIM (p. 148):

“When determining where to award runners because of obstruction, it may be necessary for more than one umpire to rule on the play. If one umpire calls the obstruction, and another makes the call of out on a play following the obstruction, the initial umpire may call time and award the runner the base he would have received had the obstruction not occurred.”

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2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Richvee, it is written into every rule set that one umpire cannot overrule another. The principle I was taught is that umpires can and should confer but ultimately it is the calling umpire’s decision. Here’s how Hunter Wendelstedt puts it in his 2013 WRIM (p. 148):

“When determining where to award runners because of obstruction, it may be necessary for more than one umpire to rule on the play. If one umpire calls the obstruction, and another makes the call of out on a play following the obstruction, the initial umpire may call time and award the runner the base he would have received had the obstruction not occurred.”

Thanks. That’s what I was looking for.  So a good UIC  behind the plate  in two man would give a lot a credence to what his partner saw and his judgment   

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