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A Video on YouTube


Vegas_Ump

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Here's a link to the video. Now, I don't do Fed games, but this discussions seemed to indicate different interpretations from OBS-based rulebooks.

Sitch:  R2, R3.  B4 lines one into left field.  F6 started creeping in, and R2 brushed into F6 slightly.  R3 scores.  R2 rounds third and attempts to score but a great throw catches him by a whisker.

Field Ump did NOT signal OBS, but he was busy with the sinking line drive.  PU ruled only on the play the the plate (out).

The discussion was this OBS, INT, or Nothing?

No OBS was signaled;  doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I felt that R2 was obstructed, but I only would have protected him to 3B.  His advance to home was at his own risk.  Some of the Fed umps suggested that R2's continued effort to home home justified protection to home.  My tendency was "Nothing".

What do you think?

Thanks.

Mike

Las Vegas

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12 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Here's a link to the video. Now, I don't do Fed games, but this discussions seemed to indicate different interpretations from OBS-based rulebooks.

 I felt that R2 was obstructed, but I only would have protected him to 3B.  His advance to home was at his own risk.  Some of the Fed umps suggested that R2's continued effort to home home justified protection to home.  My tendency was "Nothing".

If R2 was slowed down by more than the amount he was thrown out, then you should award him home.  If he was thrown out by more than he was slowed down, then the out stands.

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If you have obstruction and the play is that close at home, you could definitely award him home. I agree with noumpere.

He has to be protected to at least 3rd there. But can easily be protected to home. If he's thrown out by 30ft, then thats different.

 

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Fed enforces obstruction like type A but officiates it like type B as a delayed dead ball. The award is always 1 base minimum. 

Since the minimum award is 1 base from the base last legally obtained, we would award in this play 3rd base at a minimum. However, the rule also requires the umpire to remove the act of obstruction and award the runner the base which the umpire feels he would have reached safely had the obstruction not occurred.

So, in this case, if you feel without F6 getting in R2's way that he would have scored, award home. If you feel that OBS would only allow him to reach 3rd safely and that R2 tried to stretch and was legally put out due to over reaching, then allow the out to stand. Either way, be ready to discuss your award, or lack of enforcement with one coach or the other.

Even in HS with the mandatory award provision, this is a judgement call by the umpire. The way I see this play, F6 obstructed the runner and since this was a close play at home, I would award R2 home and negate the act of obstruction by F6.

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Should have been called, happened right in BU vision.  HPU had terrible position and preparation for the play at the plate and timing was insanely fast, so guessing this wasn’t a very experienced crew.

Im calling OBS as soon as that happens, and awarding him home because it was close enough to judge he would have scored if he had not been impeded

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13 minutes ago, Mad Mike said:

Ageed with @Mudisfun. This is OBS. Award him home. Should be the same for OBR.

BTW-Positioning by HPU is terrible to make the call. 

After watching it, I am in also full agreement that it is OBS all day.  It almost appears as if F6 purposely slowed down to hinder R2, but regardless of intent, he clearly made R2 alter his path and slow down.  So, R2 is awarded home if he's only called out on a bang-bang play at the plate.

Also, agree that BU should have caught this as it was right in front of him when he's in C already and looking at the ball... the contact is literally in his line of sight.

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19 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

Fed enforces obstruction like type A but officiates it like type B as a delayed dead ball. The award is always 1 base minimum. 

Since the minimum award is 1 base from the base last legally obtained, we would award in this play 3rd base at a minimum. However, the rule also requires the umpire to remove the act of obstruction and award the runner the base which the umpire feels he would have reached safely had the obstruction not occurred.

So, in this case, if you feel without F6 getting in R2's way that he would have scored, award home. If you feel that OBS would only allow him to reach 3rd safely and that R2 tried to stretch and was legally put out due to over reaching, then allow the out to stand. Either way, be ready to discuss your award, or lack of enforcement with one coach or the other.

Even in HS with the mandatory award provision, this is a judgement call by the umpire. The way I see this play, F6 obstructed the runner and since this was a close play at home, I would award R2 home and negate the act of obstruction by F6.

Excellent discussion!  Thanks!

Mike

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3 hours ago, Mad Mike said:

BTW-Positioning by HPU is terrible to make the call. 

Meaning HPU should be farther to his right and just off the catcher's left hip (which in this case looks to be roughly 3BL extended)?

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16 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Should have been called, happened right in BU vision.  HPU had terrible position and preparation for the play at the plate and timing was insanely fast, so guessing this wasn’t a very experienced crew.

Well, they are wearing navy, so.....:stir

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23 minutes ago, udbrky said:

So jealous of states that can choose other colors.

It’s been a long process here in NJ. I think we have got to the point where, when you hear “ I only have navy” from your partner you’re probably in for some interesting mechanics and interpretations. 

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1 minute ago, Richvee said:

It’s been a long process here in NJ. I think we have got to the point where, when you hear “ I only have navy” from your partner you’re probably in for some me interesting mechanics and interpretations. 

That's how I interpret that in the summer for sure.

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15 hours ago, Richvee said:

It’s been a long process here in NJ. I think we have got to the point where, when you hear “ I only have navy” from your partner you’re probably in for some interesting mechanics and interpretations. 

That's an interesting perspective @Richvee. I might have to consider using it someday

:stir

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17 hours ago, Richvee said:

Well, they are wearing navy, so.....:stir

While indeed funny, and I understand the gist of Rich's comment, to be fair, ... wearing navy has nothing to do with umpiring mishaps, or ineptness.   Some states still require navy for high school, and unfortunately, I live in one of them :rolleyes:

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Just now, noumpere said:

Why only to third?  (Just trying to understand, not trying to argue or suggest that you are wrong)

 

Based on the amount of "slowing down" and I do not feel he would have gotten to home safe if he had not been slowed down.

My judgement based on the video and replay.   and my 2 cents 

I could be wrong maybe he would have made it, but, what I saw makes me think it would have been a close play at the plate and I cannot say he would be safe at that point. Thus only 3rd.. from there he is on his own.

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7 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

 

Based on the amount of "slowing down" and I do not feel he would have gotten to home safe if he had not been slowed down.

My judgement based on the video and replay.   and my 2 cents 

I could be wrong maybe he would have made it, but, what I saw makes me think it would have been a close play at the plate and I cannot say he would be safe at that point. Thus only 3rd.. from there he is on his own.

It already was a close play at the plate.

benefit of the doubt has to be given to the team that is not in the wrong.  If he had been out by 3 steps I could see your point, but it was already bang-bang.

And keep in mind that when forcing someone to decelerate, the time they lost in running distance is longer than the time spent being obstructed.

if you start running and are forced to slow down, it takes longer to get back to speed than it did to slow down

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Most kids can run 90ft in about 5 seconds and that’s starting from a standstill.

if he was obstructed for 1 second, he probably lost 2 seconds of running time .  2 seconds is equal to about 36 feet, more if you consider coming home at full speed already.  That’s over 1/3 of the basepath 

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Well the way I see it if the runner is not obstructed the outfielder makes a different throw too as well as the infielder.  I work mostly with 8-12 yr olds and this year did 13 up to 16 yr olds  My judgement as I stated..

But my point is the whole play is changed and what I saw still keeps it a close play YES closer but I see the ball beat the runner by 5 feet  It was offline but still got there 1st. 

And again to me if it were closer I would have given him home but I do not see it that way.. 

 

The OP no OBS was called at all. 2 man crew issues yep a lot to cover at that point. 

I was not there but the OP stated some Fed umps argued because he went home they would award it.

I also do not have sound. Is the base coach or dugout urging him to run home too?

 

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59 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Well the way I see it if the runner is not obstructed the outfielder makes a different throw too as well as the infielder.  I work mostly with 8-12 yr olds and this year did 13 up to 16 yr olds  My judgement as I stated..

But my point is the whole play is changed and what I saw still keeps it a close play YES closer but I see the ball beat the runner by 5 feet  It was offline but still got there 1st. 

And again to me if it were closer I would have given him home but I do not see it that way.. 

 

The OP no OBS was called at all. 2 man crew issues yep a lot to cover at that point. 

I was not there but the OP stated some Fed umps argued because he went home they would award it.

I also do not have sound. Is the base coach or dugout urging him to run home too?

 

I'll reiterate what others have said ....bolded isn't / shouldn't be your judgement reason .... the play was close, period.  Don't give the advantage to the team that faulted.  Give R2 home, and it's an easier explanation to the defensive coach than it would be to the offensive coach ;) 

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The throw being offline or not offline absolutely matters - it can’t just be dismissed. Let’s say the throw beats him by 20 feet - but it’s 10 feet away from the plate. And it’s a race to the plate. What you’re saying here is that he’s out because the throw beat him by 20 feet.

I also don’t understand your argument that different throws would have been made. But if they were, they likely would have been more rushed and perhaps worse. 
 

You’re bending over backwards to excuse the defense here when they are guilty of obstruction and the guy is out at the plate by a hair. 

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