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2 man, FED, double play mechanics question PU side


Umpire942

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Pre pitch i have already signaled i have the play at 3rd if it comes there.  Does that mean overthrow too after im cleaning up second (and partially first) ? i believe so but ill wait and see if im wrong 


After the infield dp ball, the  PU eventually should be up the first base side the mound to get INT or OBS at second base. (also has pull fulled ,swipe tag, and runners lane too, but dont tell the coach that). Other places have taught me the third base side(because of the secondary play)

 

my question is on if there is an overthrow does the PU try and grab the call at third and BU at second.  or is my secondary position to go home and leave the BU at his peril.  

 

Or ideally i stay at PU duties, and my BU umpire gets ready at the plate.  obviously this would be a pregame thing.  But who makes the call at third with PU

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2 hours ago, Umpire942 said:

 

Kevin_k and Matt are basically saying opposite answers. 

@Kevin_K i think is saying after the cleanup i just go to plate

 

@Matt you are saying yes i do have to cover third, unless there is a play action all at first. and no dp? or even still ?

 

PU's first move, if there's no potential RLI or F/F, is to move to the 3B side of the mound. PU's primary responsibility is R1's slide; secondary is anything that happens at 1B.

If R1 is safe at 2B, PU's primary now becomes anything at 3B and home.

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14 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I should add that my answer above is what we did in my state (which never used pure FED mechanics), in my college group (I forget whether that was the standard at the time), and in all our OBR games.

 

I still think it's better than having PU go to third on this play -- but nobody asked me. ;)

I used to think the same, until we had a breakdown similar to what the OP was asking on a DP attempt. I as PU was able to get a read step and see the tag by F6 on R1 after a throw from across the diamond, whereas BU was hung out to dry if they had taken it (calls at 2B, 1B, and 3B? Not ideal.)

In the end, BU taking an overthrow isn't that much different than PU, and that play at third (when it happens) is a high-leverage situation.

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52 minutes ago, Matt said:

I used to think the same, until we had a breakdown similar to what the OP was asking on a DP attempt.

 

And I had multiple plays where as BU I was hung out on a swipe tag at first and PU could have helped.

 

It's as I've said -- the mechanics on this go back-and-forth because whoever is in charge at some particular time has had one play or the other.

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1 hour ago, noumpere said:

And I had multiple plays where as BU I was hung out on a swipe tag at first and PU could have helped.

 

It's as I've said -- the mechanics on this go back-and-forth because whoever is in charge at some particular time has had one play or the other.

I don't think PU is in a significantly worse position on a swipe tag on this being in the area the mechanics say to go. If the ball is going to first, PU should be off the front edge of the mound. 

To me it's all about the leverage I mentioned--R3 or an out is a bigger call than R1 or an out.

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This very OP led to a very spirited thread in an umpire group on FB. 

CCA and MILB mechanics have PU taking the play at 3b if R1 advances there on an overthrow. 
 

FED mechanics has BU taking all plays on the bases if the batted ball doesn’t leave the infield. 
 

That is”by the book” for the three codes. 
Now here’s where the spirited discussion comes in. 
I have  been to advanced 2 man clinics that promote the FED mechanic even at the college level. It’s used on a regular basis in my area. 
 

There are pros and cons of both methods, and we all know them pretty darn well. We can debate the merits of each until the cows come home. The bottomline is, this is a MUST PREGAME.  Last thing we want is no one ..( or both of us) calling a play at 3b. 

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4 hours ago, Richvee said:

There are pros and cons of both methods, and we all know them pretty darn well. We can debate the merits of each until the cows come home. The bottomline is, this is a MUST PREGAME.  Last thing we want is no one ..( or both of us) calling a play at 3b. 

It is imperative that on field communication is clear between partners. As we all know, a pregame is great, but when an Oh sh*t moment arises we all need to be on the same page

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17 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

It is imperative that on field communication is clear between partners. As we all know, a pregame is great, but when an Oh sh*t moment arises we all need to be on the same page

We’ve worked plenty together, and I think we still cover this every time. It  goes something like this. 
“ R1, ball stays on the infield, you (BU) have everything on the bases, I’ll clean up the slide play at 2B. If I (PU) see you getting stuck or in a jam I’ll let you know I got  third. “

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If I may interject, it's absolutely imperative that a PU "actively processes" this situation instead of reflexively reacts. Both of the above perspectives have merit. 

The trouble is, amateur umpires either get delinquent or lazy in situations like this; the lazy ones get yelled at, demerited, chastised, or (worse) chalked-up / written-off as lazy. The delinquent ones (good intentions, slow in recognition, reaction, and movement) unfortunately compensate either by over-communicating (again, good intentions) or by... "over-reacting" to the point of heading off to 3B as soon as the ball leaves the bat! 

You just can't. Say it's a sawn-off drubber at the plate, or a bunt. Not only does PU have Fair/Foul responsibility, but he's the only guy in the entire ballpark that can (properly) judge RLI. If he starts bounding down towards 3B, you can fuhgetaboutit on selling yes/no on potential RLI. Similar can be said about a bounding ball towards F3 and 1B. PU must stay on the line to judge Fair/Foul, and if there's a potential swipe tag coming, or pulled/missed foot by a F1 covering... 

Point is, that move to 3B may be advised, but it's not automatic.

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10 hours ago, MadMax said:

or by... "over-reacting" to the point of heading off to 3B as soon as the ball leaves the bat! 

Thank you. Great call out that the "safe" / "out" call isn't the only place we need to slow down.

"Respond vs React" is a mantra that comes to mind.

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12 hours ago, MadMax said:

If I may interject, it's absolutely imperative that a PU "actively processes" this situation instead of reflexively reacts. Both of the above perspectives have merit. 

The trouble is, amateur umpires either get delinquent or lazy in situations like this; the lazy ones get yelled at, demerited, chastised, or (worse) chalked-up / written-off as lazy. The delinquent ones (good intentions, slow in recognition, reaction, and movement) unfortunately compensate either by over-communicating (again, good intentions) or by... "over-reacting" to the point of heading off to 3B as soon as the ball leaves the bat! 

You just can't. Say it's a sawn-off drubber at the plate, or a bunt. Not only does PU have Fair/Foul responsibility, but he's the only guy in the entire ballpark that can (properly) judge RLI. If he starts bounding down towards 3B, you can fuhgetaboutit on selling yes/no on potential RLI. Similar can be said about a bounding ball towards F3 and 1B. PU must stay on the line to judge Fair/Foul, and if there's a potential swipe tag coming, or pulled/missed foot by a F1 covering... 

Point is, that move to 3B may be advised, but it's not automatic.

That's why the mechanic says to wait until there's no RLI or F/F...

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Best topic/discussion in a while…i had 45-ish ncaa games last year and about 25 (most games were DH) different pre-game answers to this scenario.

I heard BU has everything (despite cca manual saying otherwise) about 75% of the time

I heard PU will take third if BU has to commit to 1st (ball that has no chance at being double play, such as dribbler or muffed ball) about 15% of time

I heard exactly as CCA says 10% of the time.

Most common reasons to go against the manual:

1) A good BU can get that play at third 

2) Mechanics are developed to be in the best position for the most likely play.

its #2 that makes me accept that… I probably had 500 balls between college and summer where I watched slide at second and play at first and 1 ball where R1 was not only safe at second but advanced to third on a ball that never left infield.

But I think the best answer is the one about reading the situation …I now head towards the mound for slide at second ; if they are safe or no play there, I’ll drift a step or two towards third while preparing to help at first.  If he’s out or clearly not advancing, I’ll take a step or two towards first for a better angle on swipe/foot.  If overthrown, I hightail it to third, but as I said, that maybe happened once last year 

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2 hours ago, Umpire942 said:

its just the difficulty of getting RLI and clean up at second.  

For my own pregame, im going to tell me partner on DP ball, i will communicate IF i can cover at third base, but if I do,  Im now the BU, and he is the PU

seems the best approach out or reading all the responses.  

 

I do not know of any mechanic, approved or used anywhere, where BU goes home from the middle.  In 3 and 4 man, there is a mechanic where U1 slides down to the plate, but not in 2-man.

If PU goes to 3rd, and there is an overthrow, PU also has the plays at the plate.

Are you saying on a play where R1 goes to 3rd and batter gets out at first, BU should head home?  I guess I could see the logic in it, since there are no other runners left except R1 who is now going to third....maybe use it in Rec Summer Ball, but anywhere you may be evaluated, I would not recommend it.

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The only place I’ve ever seen in writing that has BU covering home is the silly 2 man FED mechanic with the bases empty, and batter hits a clean  triple, PU covers third and BU rotates home after BR commits to 3rd from 2B. 
… One of the silliest mechanics out there. 

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To expand on SH0101's great point - most of the 2-man guys I work with (HS and NCAA) focus on umpiring the most likely play.

On that OP scenario, as PU I head to the 1st base side of the mound, where I can:

  • Still have a good look at the slide legality at 2b
  • Help with pulled foot at 1st
  • Help with swipe tag at 1st
  • Help with overthrow rulings so my BU can get inside ahead of the runner

All those things are going to happen I'd say 1000 times more often than R1 beating the throw at 2nd, AND going to 3rd, AND my BU not being able to make the call at 1st, take a few steps towards the mound, and angle-over-distance the call at 3rd.

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I’ve run down to do the “cover the plate as BU on a triple” mechanic. I’ve never ended up with a play at the plate from it, but it always gets a chuckle with my partner and myself. But, do you know how sharp it would look if there was a play? It’s not much different than 1B rotating home on a hit in 3 man. 
 

If you think about it, the mechanic makes sense. There are two umpires and one base runner. The PU is jogging somewhere near the mound, then over to third to hopefully get a look at a banger. If a relay is dropped, or a ball gets away, why have him chase the play if there is a better way? The BU is doing, well, nothing once he’s made a ruling on fair foul down the RF line. Jog back in and watch the play and be in a position to make yourself useful either at the plate or with a possible rundown. 

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10 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

I’ve run down to do the “cover the plate as BU on a triple” mechanic. I’ve never ended up with a play at the plate from it, but it always gets a chuckle with my partner and myself. But, do you know how sharp it would look if there was a play? It’s not much different than 1B rotating home on a hit in 3 man. 
 

If you think about it, the mechanic makes sense. There are two umpires and one base runner. The PU is jogging somewhere near the mound, then over to third to hopefully get a look at a banger. If a relay is dropped, or a ball gets away, why have him chase the play if there is a better way? The BU is doing, well, nothing once he’s made a ruling on fair foul down the RF line. Jog back in and watch the play and be in a position to make yourself useful either at the plate or with a possible rundown. 

To be fair, I think you are speaking of a PROPER and APPROVED mechanic, but a different situation from the one described in the OP.

In NCAA, 2-man, on a ball where U1 goes out, he is to come back to home for a possible play at plate on an in-the-park home run attempt.  But U1 only goes out from A, never the middle.

The OP is describing a situation where a runner starts on first, so BU is in the middle, and rotating home from there.  As I said, I could see maybe utilizing it in Summer ball after a good pre-game meeting, why not, maybe get to do it once during the entire Summer, but I would not use it in an official game where you are using a non-approved rotation/mechanic

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13 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

I’ve run down to do the “cover the plate as BU on a triple” mechanic. I’ve never ended up with a play at the plate from it, but it always gets a chuckle with my partner and myself. But, do you know how sharp it would look if there was a play? It’s not much different than 1B rotating home on a hit in 3 man. 
 

If you think about it, the mechanic makes sense. There are two umpires and one base runner. The PU is jogging somewhere near the mound, then over to third to hopefully get a look at a banger. If a relay is dropped, or a ball gets away, why have him chase the play if there is a better way? The BU is doing, well, nothing once he’s made a ruling on fair foul down the RF line. Jog back in and watch the play and be in a position to make yourself useful either at the plate or with a possible rundown. 

That’s a different situation. The FED mechanic I’m referring to is on a clean triple when U1 from A doesn’t go out. FED actually has U1 take the runner into 2B, PU rotate up to take BR @3rd,  and once BR commits to third, U1 is to cover home. It’s in the FED manual. I may have worked with two guys in 14 years that wanted to use this mechanic. 

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2 hours ago, Richvee said:

That’s a different situation. The FED mechanic I’m referring to is on a clean triple when U1 from A doesn’t go out. FED actually has U1 take the runner into 2B, PU rotate up to take BR @3rd,  and once BR commits to third, U1 is to cover home. It’s in the FED manual. I may have worked with two guys in 14 years that wanted to use this mechanic. 

You’d have to be realllllly out of shape to use that one. You have him to third? No, you take him, I will catch my breath for a few seconds then jog home. 
 

Side note - on occasion I’ve moved to the foul side of the bag to take the banger into third from RF/RCF. I realize I could be playing with fire - I’m not really looking where I’m running at all times (pitcher going to back up could get me), as I’m watching for a touch and obstruction while being ahead of the play - but when I can get there without issue, it’s a really great look. Lot of head on a swivel. That look is better than the throw coming somewhere over my head and avoiding that while trying to get set and a get a good angle. 
 

The biggest downside I almost learned the hard way? I had a guy slam on the brakes once halfway down and go back to 2nd - and realized I was completely screwed if there was a play at 2nd with a trailer from 1B or whatever. Sometimes trying to be too perfect with a two man system that isn’t made for perfect looks everywhere. 

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