Hidden Ball Trick coming out of Dead Ball

[Guest CRC]

OBR (Pony)

With a runner at second the defense changes pitchers.  The defense attempts a hidden ball trick.  The 2B has the ball.   I am not sure if the pitcher was standing on or astride the rubber or if the umpire actually pointed play.   The 2B shades to the bag acting as if he might take a pick-off throw.  He then tags the runner (who has now led off) and shows the ball the base ump.  The home plate umpire calls a balk.   

The Defense's coach (who appeared not to have called the play - he was annoyed with his team) says that the ball was still dead as the umpire couldn't put it in play properly.   Play not live = no balk possible.  The umpire did not agree and the runner moved to 3rd. 

I believe the defensive coach was correct.  If the umpire mistakenly puts the ball in play shouldn't he just kill it and start over?  Or can he allow the balk to stand since he put it in play?  Are there rules or interpretations that support one or the other action? 

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

But, once he engages and all other requirements are met, the ball becomes live whether you declare it or not. 
I once called a whole game without technically putting the ball back in play.  Hmm maybe I should inform my association the game is invalid? 

No, that does not make the ball live.

And you should probably get better.

[BLWizzRanger]

This thread is getting as painful as this video... whoa-e whoa we goooo-eee-oooo

 

[Tborze]

1 hour ago, Matt said:

No, that does not make the ball live.

And you should probably get better.

And how did you come to those  conclusions?  
Better how?  





 

[beerguy55]

6 hours ago, Tborze said:

But, once he engages and all other requirements are met, the ball becomes live whether you declare it or not. 

2 hours ago, Tborze said:

And how did you come to those  conclusions?  
Better how?
 

Because, by rule, there are three conditions to make the ball live, outlined a few times earlier in the thread, and one of those conditions is the umpire calls "play".

Implicit in that final condition is that the umpire is ready, so, no, your statement is fundamentally false...the pitcher can have the ball and stand on the rubber all day long...the ball isn't live until the ump says it's live...when he's ready for it to be live.   

You might argue about whether or not the "according to Hoyle" mechanic is a verbal declaration, a point, a nod, dropping the hand, or some other explicit/implicit indication, but the underlying point remains - the first two conditions do not, on their own, make the ball live.   

My interpretation of "get better" is to follow the consistent standard that 99% of other umpires follow (or at the very least, those in your state/city/association).  Where umpires get into trouble, and where coaches/players get frustrated, and perceive incompetence, is when behavior/approach/standards change between umpires.

[MadMax]

On 11/5/2021 at 8:57 AM, Tborze said:

But, once he engages and all other requirements are met, the ball becomes live whether you declare it or not. 

Says who, or what? 

Every level and manner of sanctioned baseball – save one and only one – outlines that the PU makes the ball Live, whether by physical signal, vocal, or a combination thereof. There is no “becoming” on its own, nor are there any assumptions. 

The only League this is different within is actual Major League Baseball. Here, a once-dead baseball is Live as soon as F1, in possession of said ball, engages the pitcher’s plate (ie. rubber). With that said, the use of the “don’t pitch” / hand-up signal is to suspend the condition of the ball being or becoming Live. It itself doesn’t kill or make the ball Dead; it is only used coming out of a Dead ball situation, with the F1 either already engaged or in the process of engaging. 

I mention all this to shed light upon how unique it is to Major League Baseball; we do not do this in Minor League Baseball (at least in the ST games I’ve participated in). Here, we utilize the same procedures as every other level of baseball – the PU signals the ball Live. 

On 11/5/2021 at 8:57 AM, Tborze said:

I once called a whole game without technically putting the ball back in play.  Hmm maybe I should inform my association the game is invalid?

Consider it like driving and the use of your turn signal (indicator). We’re supposed to use it; when no one else is around, does it really matter if we signal a turn, or changing lanes? No. However, packed freeway or city streets, does my use or non-use of a turn signal affect others? Oh, you betcha. 

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, MadMax said:

 

The only League this is different within is actual Major League Baseball. Here, a once-dead baseball is Live as soon as F1, in possession of said ball, engages the pitcher’s plate (ie. rubber).  

I mention all this to shed light upon how unique it is to Major League Baseball; 

 

I believe MLB in the Jaska-Roder era actually had this as their procedure. Ball live when pitcher takes the rubber with it. In the following years MLB certainly seemed lax in a point or a "play" but their MLBUM did reference the need to do at least a point and have a batter in the box. In recent years most of them seem to be pointing the ball in play consistently. Muchlinski in game WS game 6 seemed to me to do it consistently.

[Thunderheads]

Ok.  This has run its course.  The answer has been given aside from a couple obstinate posters here ...the info is good, so I'll lock it down, but keep it so the information is available.

[Recontra]

By my reasoning, I'd have a balk then, and send R-2 to 3rd (pitcher was engaged with the pitcher's plate without the ball when the ball was declared live).  And you may all be right, and I may be totally 100% wrong.

But seriously, if pitcher hadn't engaged the plate yet when you mistakenly put the ball in play, but then you see him move his pivot foot onto the plate, and you don't signal the ball is dead or put the ball back into play a second time, and then he feints a throw to 1st, are you going to declare there was no balk, because you mistakenly put the ball in play before the pitcher actually engaged the plate?

Homerun? Negated for same reason? The Rule says we shouldn't or maybe even can't put the ball back into play until ALL of those conditions are met. But nowhere as far as I can see does the Rule or any official interpretation of the Rule state what happens if we put the ball in play, before the pitcher has engaged the plate, or is that Rule overlooked?

Sorry, I'm not convinced. But I'll drop it.