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How many steps? Luis Garcia Wind-up


Jimurray

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Great job by Luis Garcia HOU pitcher tonight, Sat., 10/22/21. I only ask because a year ago I encountered a bunch of NCAA anal sycophants literally enforcing a new NCAA rule regarding the pitcher's steps. Would any of you literally enforce the OBR rule of one step forward and one backsword for this sideways pitcher considering that forward would be toward 3B for this sideways pitcher. Would you enforce it for a square windup pitcher? This is a rhetorical question. 

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11 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Great job by Luis Garcia HOU pitcher tonight, Sat., 10/22/21. I only ask because a year ago I encountered a bunch of NCAA anal sycophants literally enforcing a new NCAA rule regarding the pitcher's steps. Would any of you literally enforce the OBR rule of one step forward and one backsword for this sideways pitcher considering that forward would be toward 3B for this sideways pitcher. Would you enforce it for a square windup pitcher? This is a rhetorical question. 

Nobody cared.

But - forward and backward are relative to the body, not the field.

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Mr. Jimurray, I hope you are not implying that under OBR a pitcher cannot step laterally during his delivery. If you are, then you are wrong. The OBR rule concerning the steps allowed was changed in 2006/2007 to allow a lateral step. I could cite from every single manual but that does not seem to persuade anyone anymore. So here is a cite posted by one of our resident experts in July 2019—and a link to that thread--

“Concerning the step to the side as the pitcher commits to pitch, make sure that this step is led by the heel and/or side of the foot. If the toes lead the way, consider it a step to the base, which is exactly what it will look like.”

https://umpire-empire.com/topic/72812-legal-or-illegal-pitch/

Please delete your post because it is misleading to our regular posters but even more importantly it is hurting our lurkers and newbies. We must let the world know how “woke” and virtuous we are!

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34 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Jimurray, I hope you are not implying that under OBR a pitcher cannot step laterally during his delivery. If you are, then you are wrong. The OBR rule concerning the steps allowed was changed in 2006/2007 to allow a lateral step. I could cite from every single manual but that does not seem to persuade anyone anymore. So here is a cite posted by one of our resident experts in July 2019—and a link to that thread--

“Concerning the step to the side as the pitcher commits to pitch, make sure that this step is led by the heel and/or side of the foot. If the toes lead the way, consider it a step to the base, which is exactly what it will look like.”

https://umpire-empire.com/topic/72812-legal-or-illegal-pitch/

Please delete your post because it is misleading to our regular posters but even more importantly it is hurting our lurkers and newbies. We must let the world know how “woke” and virtuous we are!

My post is about the number of steps not the direction although Garcia does step to his front and back and then to the plate and the rule still only references forward and backward. Even before the 2006/2007 rule change we allowed the free foot to step to the side. I have no problem with Garcia's delivery and wonder if MLB would allow a square windup pitcher to step forward, then backward then forward again with first step giving no advantage. 

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Thank you for that clarification. As for the rule, 5.07(a)(1), there is no penalty listed. You are right that even when the sideways step was prohibited by rule (prior to 2007) there was no penalty for pitchers who did not comply and there still isn’t. So pro umpires don’t make an issue of it but at the levels I worked that used OBR I would mention it and try to get the amateur pitcher to follow the rule.

Also it should be noted that FED and NCAA do penalize for excessive steps.

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12 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

I could cite from every single manual but that does not seem to persuade anyone anymore.

I'm going to say this to be blunt, a wake-up call, or whatever...

Just like in this thread (supra) you've been missing the salient issue presented in several conversations. It's not a matter of not being persuasive, but you're off in right field while we're making a decision. The problem lies in that you have posted relevant information until recently and thus have the glaze of authenticity. 

I would suggest going back and responding to those threads where you've messed up instead of throwing a pity party. 

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FED - During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot

NCAA - The pitcher shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter, the pitcher may take ONE step backward or sideward and one step forward with the free foot. 

OBR - He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take ONE step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

What am I missing?

Why does MLB allow this?

At what level, if any, do we start enforcing this?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

 

FED - During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot

NCAA - The pitcher shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter, the pitcher may take ONE step backward or sideward and one step forward with the free foot. 

OBR - He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take ONE step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

What am I missing?

Why does MLB allow this?

At what level, if any, do we start enforcing this?

 

 

See here where I wonder if MLB would allow a square windup pitcher to do that: https://umpire-empire.com/topic/76678-how-many-steps/?tab=comments#comment-401582 

thanks for compiling the video. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

See here where I wonder if MLB would allow a square windup pitcher to do that: https://umpire-empire.com/topic/76678-how-many-steps/?tab=comments#comment-401582 

thanks for compiling the video. 

 

Yes. You have the same issue I do with this windup. Me. Azul  relies on the fact there is no penalty listed under OBR  for “ multiple steps”.  So doesn’t that make it a “don’t do that rule”?  And aren’t “don’t do that rules” enforced by ejection if it continues after being told “don’t do that?  

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Because this “cool” windup was used on such a big stage, it won’t be long before we start seeing it at lower levels.

I too would appreciate a discussion on this topic.

When watching, my 14 yo son (also umpires) said “isn’t that a balk?”

I said (not being an OBR savant and balks being my point of emphasis for myself to improve), “not in MLB, but college and below yes”.

Wasnt even sure if I was correct saying that sadly

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1 hour ago, SH0102 said:

Because this “cool” windup was used on such a big stage, it won’t be long before we start seeing it at lower levels.

I too would appreciate a discussion on this topic.

When watching, my 14 yo son (also umpires) said “isn’t that a balk?”

I said (not being an OBR savant and balks being my point of emphasis for myself to improve), “not in MLB, but college and below yes”.

Wasnt even sure if I was correct saying that sadly

Ok. I actually got an explanation on Facebook that I can live with. 
all that dancing and stretching he does is prior to the windup. Once he takes that free foot and “ steps” towards 3b……at this moment he is now in his windup position.  The hybrid….From there, he takes a step to the side (towards 1b) and then a step forward to deliver the pitch. I could buy that. So 100% illegal in FED, and as far as I can tell, legal in   NCAA until the powers that be tell me otherwise  

 

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45 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Ok. I actually got an explanation on Facebook that I can live with. 
all that dancing and stretching he does is prior to the windup. Once he takes that free foot and “ steps” towards 3b……at this moment he is now in his windup position.  The hybrid….From there, he takes a step to the side (towards 1b) and then a step forward to deliver the pitch. I could buy that. So 100% illegal in FED, and as far as I can tell, legal in   NCAA until the powers that be tell me otherwise  

 

Interesting, I can see that now…goes back to importance of watching a pitcher during warmups, can go through these checklists in your mind.

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22 minutes ago, Velho said:

Isn’t Garcia only doing this with the bases empty? If so, A) balk wouldn’t apply and B) is Hybrid illegal in FED with no one on?

Is the penalty, as @Richvee said, “don’t do that”?

Yes. He’s only doing it with bases empty. I never said he was balking. I was questioning the two steps… one towards 3b, then one back towards 1b, before stepping towards home to deliver the pitch. And yes, the hybrid is illegal in FED at all times. 

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Thanks @Richvee. Didn't mean to imply you said he was balking. Was responding to the overall conversation.

[sarcasm] Well, y'all. Maybe I have to say welcome to the LL conundrum: the pitcher can do almost anything they want 😂

Can we talk about Kenley Jansen next? He's got more tics than Sergio Garcia [/sarcasm]

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3 minutes ago, Velho said:

Thanks @Richvee. Didn't mean to imply you said he was balking. Was responding to the overall conversation.

[sarcasm] Well, y'all. Maybe I have to say welcome to the LL conundrum: the pitcher can do almost anything they want 😂

Can we talk about Kenley Jansen next? He's got more tics than Sergio Garcia [/sarcasm]

To me, Kenley is just doing some ridiculous hip swivel while coming set. I don’t see a violation. 

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20 minutes ago, Richvee said:

To me, Kenley is just doing some ridiculous hip swivel while coming set. I don’t see a violation. 

[no sarcasm] does it matter how many times he does it or how long he pauses in between each time? I tried to find a video clip without making one but at times it seems he pauses longer between hip flips than he does between the final one and his delivery

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There’s always something moving through all of his hip flexes. He can do as many or as few as he wants. He only needs to come to complete  pause at the end if there are runners on. With no runners on there is no requirement in OBR for a pause. 

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13 hours ago, Richvee said:

Ok. I actually got an explanation on Facebook that I can live with. 
all that dancing and stretching he does is prior to the windup. Once he takes that free foot and “ steps” towards 3b……at this moment he is now in his windup position.  The hybrid….From there, he takes a step to the side (towards 1b) and then a step forward to deliver the pitch. I could buy that. So 100% illegal in FED, and as far as I can tell, legal in   NCAA until the powers that be tell me otherwise  

 

I think I understand the explanation, but ....  "ok" :) 

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  • Thunderheads changed the title to How many steps? Luis Garcia Wind-up
12 hours ago, Richvee said:

There’s always something moving through all of his hip flexes. He can do as many or as few as he wants. He only needs to come to complete pause at the end if there are runners on.

Fair enough. I went back and watched his inning of game 6 vs the Braves and follow what you're saying.

At times the pause might be good enough to avoid a ticket for running a stop sign - a 'California Stop' maybe 🤣

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3 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

I have merged @Jimurray thread, and @Richvee thread together because they're speaking about the exact same issue, and I wanted to keep all of the discussion in one place (as it's good stuff).  I hope you don't mind Rich?  

No issue. Thanks

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