Jump to content
  • 0

Riddle me this, When is game over, appeal force play at third (or second)


Umpire942

Question

This was FED rules.  I had this play happen already once in the regular high school season.  Bases were loaded,  2 outs, base hit, BR goes to first, R3 on third comes home.  All other runners , and players from bench come out on to field to celebrate.

I kick rocks around as I know they celebrated prematurely as runners did not complete their running responsibilities as i was watching home and 3rd base, partner was watching 2nd for touches.  It was a bit delayed, we started to walk off, and coach yells Mike throw it to 3rd base.  I immediately signal OUT, and said RUN does not score.  (the other team wins in the bottom of next inning)... crazy.

Anyway, this weekend same play, but i was on base duties.  The runner says to me i didnt even have to touch second base.  I should have said nothing, but i told you him you go touch that base now, you can be out.    But there was a twist this time and want to know what people think.   1) the PU called Game Over.   2) the baseball was thrown by the catcher to to the mound for some reason, and the runner touched the somewhat live ball?  I then told him to go touch third.

Was that ball still live?  could I have called him out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

I am rusty on my FED rule on this, but in NCAA and OBR, only the batter-runner and R3 must fulfill their obligations to touch the next base, R1 and R2 do not have to.

I am curious what others think because when I read what you said to the runners, that sounds an awful lot like "coaching", and if I was the defensive coach who wanted to appeal, I would be incredulous that I lost that chance because I heard you tell him to go touch the base.  Now, if the runner asked me directly "do I need to touch the next base", I might give a smart-aleck answer like "even if you didn't, is it worth the risk to not run 20 more feet?" because in my mind, there is no reason not to go touch the base.  You do it all game every game for years, so why do you need to go celebrate 1.4 seconds earlier?

As for the ball, that is not a batted ball, so touching it means nothing unless he intentionally interfered with a play.  The catcher rolling the ball on the ground and he kicks while running to celebrate is a whole lot of nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
8 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I am rusty on my FED rule on this, but in NCAA and OBR, only the batter-runner and R3 must fulfill their obligations to touch the next base, R1 and R2 do not have to.

I am curious what others think because when I read what you said to the runners, that sounds an awful lot like "coaching", and if I was the defensive coach who wanted to appeal, I would be incredulous that I lost that chance because I heard you tell him to go touch the base.  Now, if the runner asked me directly "do I need to touch the next base", I might give a smart-aleck answer like "even if you didn't, is it worth the risk to not run 20 more feet?" because in my mind, there is no reason not to go touch the base.  You do it all game every game for years, so why do you need to go celebrate 1.4 seconds earlier?

As for the ball, that is not a batted ball, so touching it means nothing unless he intentionally interfered with a play.  The catcher rolling the ball on the ground and he kicks while running to celebrate is a whole lot of nothing.

 

I would never help the runner, but i can tell you, everybody thought the game was over except me.

 

6 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Oh, and to answer your question in the title....they lose the right to appeal when the infielders have left fair territory and the catcher has left the "dirt circle" (plate area if there is no defined circle)

all infielders did not leave fair territory yet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
34 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

I kick rocks around as I know they celebrated prematurely

You should act just as you would if the runner had touched the base -- that is, leave the field expeditiously (but don't rush off, or try to hide)

35 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

1) the PU called Game Over.

That means nothing (and is not part of the mechanics).  The rest of the play then seems to answer itself

36 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

I should have said nothing

Yep -- and if you are leaving the field, you won't need to say anything

24 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I am rusty on my FED rule on this, but in NCAA and OBR, only the batter-runner and R3 must fulfill their obligations to touch the next base, R1 and R2 do not have to.

That's true only on a walk, or HBP, or other "awarded" base.  In FED, even on these awards, all must advance.  In all codes, all must advance on a base hit.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
23 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

 

I would never help the runner, but i can tell you, everybody thought the game was over except me.

 

all infielders did not leave fair territory yet

@SH0102 is correct for NCAA/OBR but FED is different on an end of game appeal and an appeal can take place until the umpires have left the field of play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

What noumpere said.

The OP tipped the defense in game 1 by sticking around. He hurt the defense in game 2 by coaching the runners. 

The game is over when the winning run scores. We need to leave the field as usual. Rule on appeals if and only if they're begun before we (both) get off the field (and yes, there's a definition of that).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I should enhance my reading comprehension skills....when he said the catcher rolled the ball out, I assumed it was a walk, hit by pitch, etc, some play that ended with the catcher holding the ball. With the bases loaded in tie game, bottom of last inning, on a clean hit, there is rarely, if ever, a throw home for the catcher to have the ball to roll out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
47 minutes ago, maven said:

What noumpere said.

The OP tipped the defense in game 1 by sticking around. He hurt the defense in game 2 by coaching the runners. 

The game is over when the winning run scores. We need to leave the field as usual. Rule on appeals if and only if they're begun before we (both) get off the field (and yes, there's a definition of that).

i did not tip the defense in game one, they picked up on that appeal on their own.  "me saying kicking rocks" i, literally took 5 seconds to look at what the base runners did, and what his did, and BU came in running into the plate and were collecting drinks and items.  Were were not literally kicking rocks and staying on the field.  There is no rule that we have to leave the field immediately after the game is over and have to rush off.

 

Game 2 was more of a no, no.  But nobody had any clue, and thankfully I was right as no appeal was made or even though about, gave the runner a teachable moment and made him touch.

 

The main QUESTION in this thread was touching that no batted ball, if that was any violation. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
33 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Well, what;s the rule when an offensive player touches a thrown ball?  Does it rise to INT?

but PU said game over, ball is dead no? only appeals can happen.  If it was live and intentionally touched he would be out not INT

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
2 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

but PU said game over, ball is dead no? only appeals can happen.  If it was live and intentionally touched he would be out not INT

Why would he be out, if it wasn't INT?

 

And, is there something in the rule book where the umpire says "game over" and it means something?  Or, is it just a (bad) habit that too many youth umpires get into?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
1 minute ago, noumpere said:

Why would he be out, if it wasn't INT?

 

And, is there something in the rule book where the umpire says "game over" and it means something?  Or, is it just a (bad) habit that too many youth umpires get into?

INT/OUT yes sorry

 

I am breaking down just this subject.  A baseball game is completed.  But we all know the general rule, its not over until both umpires leave.  So im elaborating on this grey area here.  Where the PU says "GAME OVER".  Is the ball dead at this time.  I would assume so

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
7 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

INT/OUT yes sorry

 

I am breaking down just this subject.  A baseball game is completed.  But we all know the general rule, its not over until both umpires leave.  So im elaborating on this grey area here.  Where the PU says "GAME OVER".  Is the ball dead at this time.  I would assume so

If it's dead, then how can the defense make an appeal?  The ball can't be dead for some purposes but live for others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

So asking probing questions is not working, so here’s straight to point:

Touching the ball is nothing unless he is intentionally INT with a play.  Rolling a ball to mound is not a play.

Saying game over means nothing and does not make the ball dead, or the game over.  If you want to be technical, the game is over when the last out is recorded or winning run is scored in bottom of last inning, AND defense has left the infield and plate area.

You are correct there is no rule you must disappear like the wind when the last run scores, but if defense hasn’t appealed by time you and partner leave field together, I doubt they will later.

Just end game like you would anyways, don’t coach runners, and if defense appeals in proper time, then make your call.  Everything else is nothing

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
16 hours ago, noumpere said:

If it's dead, then how can the defense make an appeal?  The ball can't be dead for some purposes but live for others.

appeals are made live, and durring dead ball all the time, and in the play above could have claimed the other runner who i did not whisper to, didnt touch third.

But as for dead for some live for others obviously not.  You will not answer the question.  So as I am going to continue to assume, if a game winning run comes in.  (even though base runners have to continue their running responsibilities) the ball is dead.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
17 minutes ago, Umpire942 said:

appeals are made live, and durring dead ball all the time, and in the play above could have claimed the other runner who i did not whisper to, didnt touch third.

But as for dead for some live for others obviously not.  You will not answer the question.  So as I am going to continue to assume, if a game winning run comes in.  (even though base runners have to continue their running responsibilities) the ball is dead.

 

If the base runners have not completed their obligations to touch the next base, the ball is most certainly not dead.

You can walk off Diamond like the game is over (so as not to tip off an appeal would be valid), but the ball is not dead.

Imagine scenario…bases loaded, tie game, bottom of 9th , ncaa game (where appeals must be done when live)

Guy hits a gapper, everyone cheers and screams and mobs batter at first, including R1 who never touched second.

Savvy outfielder sees this, chases ball down at fence, throws to SS standing at second.  

You telling me you’re gonna make them reset, next batter in box , pitcher on rubber, say play, step off, throw to second “because the ball was dead?”

It was very much alive and R1 is out when they throw to second (barring all INF having left infield)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 10/19/2021 at 7:17 AM, Umpire942 said:

This was FED rules.

 

On 10/19/2021 at 1:51 PM, Umpire942 said:

but PU said game over, ball is dead no?

Well, if you’re clinging to Fed rules so emphatically, then you can breathe easy… because even if the ball is Dead because PU bellowed “Game Over!” (which it doesn’t do, but regardless), Fed is the lone rule set that allows for dead-ball verbal appeals. No making the ball Live again, no throws / tags necessary. 

But this odd perspective opens up Pandora’s box… if base touches “don’t count” for the purposes of an appeal during a dead ball, then what are we to do if the game-winning play is a dead-ball event, such as a HBP with bases loaded, or a Balk, or a U3K with the pitched ball going out of play? Are we to play the grand game of “Gotcha!” and wait for all Runners, including the BR who may need medical attention on a HBP, to touch their awarded base(s), and if they don’t, call ‘em Out?! 

Thing is, there’s no time limit, nor letter-of-the-law, when adjudicating things of this nature. Even during a live ball walk, does the BR have to go to 1B in a straight, direct line? Not necessarily… I’ve seen BRs vector to the dugout, drop off their protective gear, pick up their sunglasses, and exchange helmets with the next hitter, all before touching (obtaining) 1B. 

On 10/19/2021 at 7:17 AM, Umpire942 said:

2) the baseball was thrown by the catcher to to the mound for some reason, and the runner touched the somewhat live ball?  Was that ball still live?  could I have called him out?

First, just like there are no ties in baseball, there is no “somewhat” live (or dead) ball. It’s either Live, or Dead. Period. In all rulesets, there are events or actions that kill a baseball (eg. HBP, INT), and in Fed, there are three “killing words” – Foul, Time, and Balk. Your partner bellowing “Game Over!” or “Ball game!” doesn’t kill that baseball. However, the event – the game-winning run scoring, is what kills the baseball. Let’s look at an inning-ending event for a similar interpretation: let’s say we have a ballpark with dugouts very close to the plate area. Let’s say we have R3, and a catcher who believes there are 2 outs (when there’s actually 1 out only). Batter strikes out, and the catcher keeps the ball in his mitt and dashes into his dugout. Since it’s (now) only 2 outs, that’s a Dead ball, since it was carried into DBT by a fielder, and a base award. Score R3. But what’s different about it being 2 outs? Because the batter striking out for the third out is an event that makes the ball dead, so it doesn’t matter where the ball goes or what the catcher does with it. 

How many times have you called Out a Runner who has been hit or touched by a _thrown_ ball (RLI notwithstanding)? Why were you poised to do so in your posted scenario? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...