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Force Out


Guest BG1

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Guest BG1

Situation: Runners on first and second, no outs. One hopper hit to short, runner on second stays on the base. Shortstop grabs the balls tags the runner on second first, then touches the second base, and then throws to first for the out. Triple play or double play? Is the runner on second safe because he was standing on the bag? I thought triple play, but it was called a double play with the reasoning being the runner on second didn't have to run to third.

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1 hour ago, maven said:

Triple play. The rationale provided for discounting the play on R2 is incorrect.

With R1, R2, when the batter hits a ground ball, the runners are forced to advance. Their base is no longer safe haven, due to being forced to advance. 

Had F6 tagged 2B prior to tagging R2, that would have removed the force on R2 by retiring a preceding trailing runner (R1). At that point, R2 could have safely remained on 2B.

But as described, this should have been a triple play.

FIFY

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Triple play. The rationale provided for discounting the play on R2 is incorrect.

With R1, R2, when the batter hits a ground ball, the runners are forced to advance. Their base is no longer safe haven, due to being forced to advance. 

Had F6 tagged 2B prior to tagging R2, that would have removed the force on R2 by retiring a preceding runner (R1). At that point, R2 could have safely remained on 2B.

But as described, this should have been a triple play.

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9 hours ago, Guest BG1 said:

I thought triple play, but it was called a double play with the reasoning being the runner on second didn't have to run to third.

Oh, he had to run to third all right...that's why it's a force play.  He is forced to advance to third, by the runner on first (who is in turn forced by the batter).   

In following the "logic" of your game's "umpire", no runner really has to do anything they don't want to....and that is not really relevant to the enforcing the rules of the game.     Runners and fielders can do, or not do, anything they want, at any time.  However, because of that inconvenient rule book, some of those decisions have consequences.  

So, yeah, he didn't have to leave the base if he didn't want to...AND he should have been called out when tagged.

 

Just because you're on a base doesn't mean you're safe...

- if two runners are on a base, only one of them is safe

- on an appeal play (missed base, left too early on a fly ball) that runner is not safe while standing on a different base, if they are tagged as part of an appeal

- when forced, the base you are leaving is no longer safe

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I do not know what age this ballgame was, and I doubt the umpire was very experienced.  I wish we could get a message to ALL new/young umpires...it is okay, expected, and even acceptable to make mistakes.  But do NOT attempt to justify the mistakes with rules that do not exist.

My son is 14 and has already umpired college fall ball games, including D1, but he most definitely does not know a lot of the rule book.  I told him, if you kick a call, or misapply a rule, then just own it, learn from it, and move on.  But do NOT try to justify something you are not 100% sure about.  Even if it means just saying "this is what I have, if I messed up, I apologize and will look it up later, but we are sticking with it" (he usually works solo games, doesnt have partners to ask).

If it is that big of a deal, that is what protests are for, but let's move along.  But don't quote a rule that does not exist

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