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OBR ORDER OF APPEALS


TOMUIC

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R1 & R3, one out. Ground ball thrown past the 1st baseman who retrieves the ball. R3 has crossed the plate and R1 has already passed second when   the first baseman steps on 1st appealing that the BR missed 1st base.The umpire immediately calls the BR out (now 2outs) as the ball is then thrown to 3rd where R1 is called safe. Now the 3rd baseman properly appeals and R1 is called out for missing 2nd base (for the third out). Based on current OBR interpretation should R3 legally score a run?

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When performed and appealed in the sequence you give, R3 scores (a run). 

As soon as the call upon BR is made of Out on appeal of not touching 1B, then the “force is off” for the other runners. Thus, R1 proceeding to 2B and 3B is non-forced, and everything becomes time-plays. 

Had the sequence been switched around, and BR is the “last” appeal performed, then no other runs would have been scored. Or, let’s say there had been 2 outs, and instead of appealing on BR’s failure to touch 1B (or let’s say he did, was appealed upon, and BU verified he did touch), then the appeal upon R1 for his failure to touch 2B is performed, and he’s called Out on that appeal. Then R3’s run would be invalidated because of the force still being On upon R1 at 2B.

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Personally I think runs shouldn’t count bc two people missed a base on the same play, just by principle alone (unless we are talking about 8 year olds or something)

Also, while the above is correct, it basically can’t happen, bc the appeal on BR must occur before batter gets back to the bag (assuming he overran it).

If you appeal to second first, there’s no way the BR isn’t back on first by the time you appeal there too

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4 hours ago, MadMax said:

When performed and appealed in the sequence you give, R3 scores (a run). 

As soon as the call upon BR is made of Out on appeal of not touching 1B, then the “force is off” for the other runners. Thus, R1 proceeding to 2B and 3B is non-forced, and everything becomes time-plays. 

Had the sequence been switched around, and BR is the “last” appeal performed, then no other runs would have been scored. Or, let’s say there had been 2 outs, and instead of appealing on BR’s failure to touch 1B (or let’s say he did, was appealed upon, and BU verified he did touch), then the appeal upon R1 for his failure to touch 2B is performed, and he’s called Out on that appeal. Then R3’s run would be invalidated because of the force still being On upon R1 at 2B.

I'm in class and don't have my manual handy, but this is only correct for NCAA (and I think FED.)

Wendelstedt says that a runner's status on appeal for a missed base is that at the moment the base was missed, so the second appeal is still a force out and no run scores.

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

I'm in class and don't have my manual handy, but this is only correct for NCAA (and I think FED.)

Wendelstedt says that a runner's status on appeal for a missed base is that at the moment the base was missed, so the second appeal is still a force out and no run scores.

I agree with you for OBR and NCAA. They differ. FED is up for grabs. There is no conclusive ruling for FED. Basically in OBR if the force existed at the time of the miss it is a forced base appeal. The order of appeals in OBR only matters if a non force and a forced appeal add up to the 3rd out.

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I think it also depends on whether these appeals were during relaxed action or continuous action.

 

The defense has time to think about it during the former, so we hold them to a higher standard in making the appeals in the correct order (under at least some codes or interps)

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From the 2013 Wendelstedt Rules and Interpretations Manual (pp. 167-168):

If at the moment a runner misses a base, he was forced to touch it by reason of the batter becoming a runner, it will be a force out upon appeal, even if a following runner is put out during the play or on appeal subsequent to the miss of the base…

After the third out has been made, the defense may continue to make appeals on runners for missing bases or for not properly tagging up. They may replace any of these outs with the third out if it is advantageous in preventing runs from scoring.

This is not the case if the appeals make for exactly three outs. If multiple appeals are made which only create three outs, the defense is restricted by the order in which they appeal.

***

These interpretations also appear in the 2016 BRD. So if you are telling us that there is a newer interpretation that supersedes these two in a more recent Wendelstedt manual then it would have to have been after 2016. Still all we have is your assertion that there is a newer interpretation. Let’s see some evidence.

 

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From the 2016 BRD (section 13, p. 26):

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If the defense will make multiple appeals:  When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in the proper order.

2003 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 4: With one out and runners on first and second bases, on a fair hit to short right field, R2 scores from second base and R1 misses second base, and the batter-runner overruns and misses first base. The defense calls time and appeals R1 missing second base first and the batter-runner missing first base. The umpire honors the appeals which results in the third out. Does R2's run count? RULING: No, R2's run would not count because the first appeal at second base and the latter appeal at first base is the third out. Due to the force at first base, the run cannot count. (9-1-1a)

2006 NFHS Baseball Interpretations  SITUATION 12: With R1 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R1 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals B4 missing first base and then appeals R2 missing third base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. B4 would be declared out for the second out and R2 would be the third out. R1’s run would count. (8-2-6c,f; 9-1-1)

SITUATION 13: With R3 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R3 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals R2 missing third base and then appeals B4 missing first base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. R2 would be declared out for out number two and B4 would be the third out. No runs would score as B4’s out is out number three and was made before he touched first base. The order in which appeals are made can be important in determining if runs will score. (8-2-6c,f, 9-1-1a)

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28 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I think it also depends on whether these appeals were during relaxed action or continuous action.

 

The defense has time to think about it during the former, so we hold them to a higher standard in making the appeals in the correct order (under at least some codes or interps)

That would be true in NCAA. But what higher  standard in NCAA would you apply if one appeal was given under live action while the scout in the dugout was yelling to appeal 2B and then they did?

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6 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 13, p. 26):

FED Official Interpretation:  Hopkins:  If the defense will make multiple appeals:  When a force play situation is in effect, the appeals must be made in the proper order.

2003 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 4: With one out and runners on first and second bases, on a fair hit to short right field, R2 scores from second base and R1 misses second base, and the batter-runner overruns and misses first base. The defense calls time and appeals R1 missing second base first and the batter-runner missing first base. The umpire honors the appeals which results in the third out. Does R2's run count? RULING: No, R2's run would not count because the first appeal at second base and the latter appeal at first base is the third out. Due to the force at first base, the run cannot count. (9-1-1a)

2006 NFHS Baseball Interpretations  SITUATION 12: With R1 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R1 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals B4 missing first base and then appeals R2 missing third base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. B4 would be declared out for the second out and R2 would be the third out. R1’s run would count. (8-2-6c,f; 9-1-1)

SITUATION 13: With R3 on third and R2 on second base and one out, B4 hits a line drive into the gap in right center field. R3 scores easily. R2 misses third base as he advances, but does touch home plate. B4 makes it to second base on an apparent double, but missed first base on his advance. After playing action is over, the defensive head coach is granted time and first appeals R2 missing third base and then appeals B4 missing first base. RULING: This is a legal appeal by the defense as the coach may verbally appeal a base running infraction when the ball is dead and may make multiple appeals. R2 would be declared out for out number two and B4 would be the third out. No runs would score as B4’s out is out number three and was made before he touched first base. The order in which appeals are made can be important in determining if runs will score. (8-2-6c,f, 9-1-1a)

The order in which appeals can be important but all of the above do not address two forced base appeals.

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Thank you Senor Azul for  citing the  Wendelstedt interpretation in its entirety. If others refer to the current OBR Interpretation of “the order of appeals “ I think they will see that it is in agreement with what you quoted from the Wendelstedt Manual.

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