Jump to content
  • 0

Does Arozarena need to retouch second base


Guest Crazy Me

Question

Guest Crazy Me

Red Sox Game two nights ago.  Top of the 11th (I think it was).  Randy Arozarena steals second sliding in head first.  There is a shift on so no one is guarding third base.  Mr. Arozarena jumps to his feet.  Both of his feet touch the ground on the right field side of the second base bag (so, he has not "passed the base").  He takes off for third and in doing so DOES NOT TOUCH SECOND.  In the game a heads up Nick Pivetta covered third and drove Arozarena back to second.

Hypothetically, had Arozarena made it to third safely, could he have been called out on appeal for not touching second the "last time by?"

I remember a play a few years back wherein a runner got caught in a rundown between second and third.  He over-slid second base (right field side of the bag) while the defense threw the ball away.  He took off for third and made it safely but, without touching second.  He was called out on appeal.

Are these two plays the same or different?

Thanks for your experience and hard-earned wisdom.

I'd post a video clip if I could, but it doesn't look like this software will allow me to do that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

I haven't seen it, and can't answer a question about a judgment call without the video. I gather that the runner touched the base when he slid in at first, then stood up on the 1B side of the base.

Regarding the rule: if the umpire judged that the runner retreated behind 2B, then yes, he'd have to touch it again on the last time by or be liable to be called out on appeal for missing the base.

If the umpire judged that the runner did not retreat, then he could not be called out for a missed base appeal.

In any amateur game, if all the runner did was stand up after touching the base, I'd never rule that he had retreated behind the base. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
2 hours ago, Guest Crazy Me said:

Red Sox Game two nights ago.  Top of the 11th (I think it was).  Randy Arozarena steals second sliding in head first.  There is a shift on so no one is guarding third base.  Mr. Arozarena jumps to his feet.  Both of his feet touch the ground on the right field side of the second base bag (so, he has not "passed the base").  He takes off for third and in doing so DOES NOT TOUCH SECOND.  In the game a heads up Nick Pivetta covered third and drove Arozarena back to second.

Hypothetically, had Arozarena made it to third safely, could he have been called out on appeal for not touching second the "last time by?"

I remember a play a few years back wherein a runner got caught in a rundown between second and third.  He over-slid second base (right field side of the bag) while the defense threw the ball away.  He took off for third and made it safely but, without touching second.  He was called out on appeal.

Are these two plays the same or different?

Thanks for your experience and hard-earned wisdom.

I'd post a video clip if I could, but it doesn't look like this software will allow me to do that.

The two plays are indeed different.  In yours, the runner is retreating to second...so if he overshoots second, he is then retreating to first.

In the Sox/Rays game, he was advancing to second...and reached it...when he popped up his feet just happened to land on the first base side of the base...that's not a retreat, if one is using common sense.   I'm sure some fundamentalist arbiter, or a bureaucrat, could convince himself that it is, I guess, but it would not be appropriate, IMO....that wouldn't be judgment...that would be technical enforcement.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

The 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual defines a runner passing a base as follows (section 5.14, p. 55):

A runner is considered to have passed a base if he has both feet on the ground beyond the back edge of the base or beyond the edge of the base in the direction to which he is advancing. The direction the runner is advancing determines the edges of the base when defining when a runner has passed a base.

A runner returning to their original base is required to retouch that original base before advancing if both of their feet are on the ground beyond the original base.

***

Two diagrams accompany the text and they have been reproduced here on U-E a few times (I cannot do so now since I do not have a scanner). The diagram in the book shows that two edges of second base would be considered passing and two would not be. For a runner coming from first base the left field side of second base and the third base side of second are the edges where an advancing runner is considered to have passed the base.

As you describe it, you are correct—the Tampa runner Arozarena did not pass second base so he would be legal to continue his advance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

In the Sox/Rays game, he was advancing to second...and reached it...when he popped up his feet just happened to land on the first base side of the base..

If this is accurate...

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

The 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual defines a runner passing a base as follows (section 5.14, p. 55):

A runner is considered to have passed a base if he has both feet on the ground beyond the back edge of the base or beyond the edge of the base in the direction to which he is advancing. The direction the runner is advancing determines the edges of the base when defining when a runner has passed a base.

A runner returning to their original base is required to retouch that original base before advancing if both of their feet are on the ground beyond the original base.

***

Two diagrams accompany the text and they have been reproduced here on U-E a few times (I cannot do so now since I do not have a scanner). The diagram in the book shows that two edges of second base would be considered passing and two would not be. For a runner coming from first base the left field side of second base and the third base side of second are the edges where an advancing runner is considered to have passed the base.

As you describe it, you are correct—the Tampa runner Arozarena did not pass second base so he would be legal to continue his advance.

...then this is a missed base under this. The diagram shows that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Guest Crazy Me

Gents,

Thanks for your input.  The answer seems to be..., if I want to live and die by the book, a case can be made that he didn't touch the base but in any game below the college level, I'd be looking for trouble if I called it that way.

My 30 years in baseball have taught me two surprising things - one of which is, the number of runners who don't bother to touch bases in a game called BASEball is shocking.

This play is a low-probability event.  If it happens in one of my games I'm going to take the temperature on the field and make the best call I have on that day in that game.

Thanks again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
8 hours ago, Matt said:

If this is accurate...

...then this is a missed base under this. The diagram shows that.

Not sure about that - the rule states that the direction in which the runner is moving/advancing matters in determining if a runner went past a base.  He was moving to second from first, not from third.  After touching second, on his advance from first, by standing up on the first base/RF side of the base - in a continuous motion to move onto third - is he now deemed to be moving towards first, simply because of where his feet landed?

If that is the case then I stand by my statement that this would not be "judgment"...it would be a technical, bureaucratic, fundamentalist application of the letter of the law.  Not "wrong" per se...but not practical IMO.   Certainly not to the spirit of the rule.   He simply stood up on the "wrong" side of the base after acquiring it, mainly as a result of a head first slide.   I bet this type of slide/popup/advance happens at least once a week across MLB.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Not sure about that - the rule states that the direction in which the runner is moving/advancing matters in determining if a runner went past a base.  He was moving to second from first, not from third.  After touching second, on his advance from first, by standing up on the first base/RF side of the base - in a continuous motion to move onto third - is he now deemed to be moving towards first, simply because of where his feet landed?

If that is the case then I stand by my statement that this would not be "judgment"...it would be a technical, bureaucratic, fundamentalist application of the letter of the law.  Not "wrong" per se...but not practical IMO.   Certainly not to the spirit of the rule.   He simply stood up on the "wrong" side of the base after acquiring it, mainly as a result of a head first slide.   I bet this type of slide/popup/advance happens at least once a week across MLB.

 

 

The rule isn't referring to intent in talking about advancing/retreating--it's defining it based on the runner's position.

Think about this--if a runner does that under your interpretation, they can come off the bag in this manner and move to either 3rd or 1st. If the runner had never touched 2nd but merely stopped in the same place in this example, we would have no question that they could not advance to 3rd legally and that if a force at 2nd existed, it was still on, thus the only base they could have acquired is 1st. Allowing them to come off the bag in this manner and advance to 3rd creates an inconsistency in application. 

I also have a hunch that is why "both feet" is part of the definition--to minimize these instances. However, we can't ignore the rule when it includes such plain language that was obviously there for a reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.






×
×
  • Create New...