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Batted Ball Deflected Out of Play


johnnyg08

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4 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

I don't know what the umpires ruled, but a deflected ball over the fence is the same as a thrown ball.

Place runners from their last base acquired, and the time ball went dead. 

I do believe Tampa Bay got hosed, unless the rules state otherwise. 

No. This was a BATTED ball. They got it right. 2 bases time of pitch.

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5 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

I don't know what the umpires ruled, but a deflected ball over the fence is the same as a thrown ball.

Place runners from their last base acquired, and the time ball went dead. 

I do believe Tampa Bay got hosed, unless the rules state otherwise. 

That's only true if the ball has come to rest, or the ball's momentum is such that it couldn't have gone out of play on it's own.  The fact that the fielder changed the direction of the ball doesn't matter.  This is just a normal "ground rule" (sic) double.

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These plays are covered very nicely in the MLBUM:

OBR Approved Ruling: 5.06(b)(4)(H)

However, the Approved Ruling also provides that if the pitched ball (or thrown ball by the pitcher while in contact with the rubber) goes through or by the catcher (or fielder), remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch. 

The above rulings apply if the deflection is unintentional on the part of the fielder. If, in the judgment of the umpires, a fielder intentionally kicks or deflects any batted or thrown ball out of play, the award is two bases from the time the ball was kicked or deflected. 

Relevant Case Plays:

  • If a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play the award is two bases from the time of the pitch
  • If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected. 
  • If, in the judgment of the umpire, a fielder intentionally kicks or deflects a batted or thrown ball out of play, the award is two bases from the time the ball was kicked or deflected. 

 

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3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

OBR Approved Ruling: 5.06(b)(4)(H)

Question on a minor point: Is everyone referring to this instead of 5.05(a)(8) because they are referring to the MLBUM which refers to an older version of OBR?

Reference of 5.05(a)(8) https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/atcjzj9j7wrgvsm8wnjq.pdf

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2 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

Crew Chief make a rare appearance and clears everything up for the media:

Thanks @johnnyg08 Sam did a good job. Only nit I have is I think it'd be more powerful to refer to the rulebook directly. The language is so clear already. Take out of the middleman of the MLBUM and quote the source.

Also, his intro stated the assembled media there never let the umpires speak. I found that odd. I expect they'd always give them time. Not to mention why he thinks he needs them to get his message out.

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1 minute ago, Velho said:

Thanks @johnnyg08 Sam did a good job. Only nit I have is I think it'd be more powerful to refer to the rulebook directly. The language is so clear already. Take out of the middleman of the MLBUM and quote the source.

Also, his intro stated the assembled media there never let the umpires speak. I found that odd. I expect they'd always give them time. Not to mention why he thinks he needs them to get his message out.

I agree with that. My understanding, again from the MLBUM, is that the Crew Chief has the discretion whether or not to speak to the media. And yes, the rule book language helps the casual fan & player because very few people have access to the MLBUM...which I wish would change. The media & commentators could have one in their booths if they wanted to...or their fact finders. 

 

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Maybe...but the wrinkle it would add would be placement of runners. With video review it's pretty easy...in the amateur world...I like unintentional, two bases, TOP. Then I don't have to worry about where the runners were or weren't. 

I see that point though. 

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5 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Maybe...but the wrinkle it would add would be placement of runners. With video review it's pretty easy...in the amateur world...I like unintentional, two bases, TOP. Then I don't have to worry about where the runners were or weren't. 

I see that point though. 

We will have to see if that approved ruling always existed for a thrown ball or if it was added at some point due to perceived unfairness. Calling @Senor Azul, was this always in the ball thrown out of play rule: "APPROVED RULING: If all runners, including the batterrunner, have advanced at least one base when an infielder makes a wild throw on the first play after the pitch, the award shall be governed by the position of the runners when the wild throw was made." 

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14 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's only true if the ball has come to rest, or the ball's momentum is such that it couldn't have gone out of play on it's own.  The fact that the fielder changed the direction of the ball doesn't matter.  This is just a normal "ground rule" (sic) double.

From what I saw, the ball hit the base of the wall, and wouldn't have left the field of play without Renfroe's help.

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10 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

5.05 a(8) thank you @Velho

Screen Shot 2021-10-11 at 11.03.28 AM.jpg

The part where it says all runners would mean that the batter, or  technically speaking, batter-runner are awarded 2 bases.  Diaz was off on the pitch, had rounded 2B, and almost to 3B when the ball went dead.  Kiermeier had rounded 1B when the ball went dead........so technically, we had two runners.  Diaz should have been given home and Kiermeier awarded 3B.

I just recall when doing FED (I know not OBR) awards were given from the time the ball went dead in a situation like this.

I'm perplexed why something like this is a TOP award.  Doesn't sound right that the offense basically gets penalized for the bad play of the defense. 

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9 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

From what I saw, the ball hit the base of the wall, and wouldn't have left the field of play without Renfroe's help.

You saw correctly.  But the direction of the ball doesn't matter -- it's the speed / momentum of the ball.  The outfielder didn't add any velocity to the ball to caues it to go OOP -- he only changed the direction.

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Mr. Steven Tyler, when did you work high school games? In 2019 FED ruled the same as OBR on the deflection of a batted ball. I can tell you that this same play was in the 1983 case book.

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 8.3.3 Situation H:  B1 hits a long fly ball to left field. F7 goes back to the fence, leaps, but is not able to touch the fly ball. The ball then rebounds off the fence, strikes the fielder’s glove and ricochets over the fence in fair territory. Is this a home run or a ground-rule double? RULING:  This would be considered a ground-rule double. To be a home run, the ball must clear the fence in flight. Action secondary to the hit (ball ricocheting off the fence and then off the fielder’s glove) caused the ball to go into dead-ball area. Therefore, the hit shall be ruled a ground-rule double.

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12 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

I just recall when doing FED (I know not OBR) awards were given from the time the ball went dead in a situation like this.

You're incorrect. I just found a rulebook over 10 years old (2009).

Rule 8-3-3 (page 53 if you happen to have one), shows that it's two bases from the time of pitch. If it has changed, it's been a LONG time ago.

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18 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

You're incorrect. I just found a rulebook over 10 years old (2009).

Rule 8-3-3 (page 53 if you happen to have one), shows that it's two bases from the time of pitch. If it has changed, it's been a LONG time ago.

I don't think this was ever a rules difference in FED. None of the FED principles of departure (safety, simplicity, etc.) would motivate a change.

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18 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

The part where it says all runners would mean that the batter, or  technically speaking, batter-runner are awarded 2 bases.  Diaz was off on the pitch, had rounded 2B, and almost to 3B when the ball went dead.  Kiermeier had rounded 1B when the ball went dead........so technically, we had two runners.  Diaz should have been given home and Kiermeier awarded 3B.

I just recall when doing FED (I know not OBR) awards were given from the time the ball went dead in a situation like this.

I'm perplexed why something like this is a TOP award.  Doesn't sound right that the offense basically gets penalized for the bad play of the defense. 

So under that thought...you'd be comfortable putting the batter/runner at 3B in this play?

 

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7 hours ago, kylehutson said:

You're incorrect. I just found a rulebook over 10 years old (2009).

Rule 8-3-3 (page 53 if you happen to have one), shows that it's two bases from the time of pitch. If it has changed, it's been a LONG time ago.

It's been longer than that.  I had torn my meniscus, and working a DH was becoming almost impossible.  I could work one game, but couldn't run very well for a few days after.  Got it fixed, but doctor advised against umpiring.  Anyway, I was a very good softball player, so I got my Jones playing Senior Softball, and played on World Championship teams.

I recall something like this in a discussion.  I asked about a batted ball being deflected out in foul territory, and was told to award 2 bases.  I also recall being told a batted ball was dead when it became dead.  Perhaps our rules guy (state rules guy for several years) wanted it to be that way.  Really don't recall all the details.  Might have talking about a deflected thrown ball.

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6 hours ago, Steven Tyler said:

It's been longer than that.  I had torn my meniscus, and working a DH was becoming almost impossible.  I could work one game, but couldn't run very well for a few days after.  Got it fixed, but doctor advised against umpiring.  Anyway, I was a very good softball player, so I got my Jones playing Senior Softball, and played on World Championship teams.

I recall something like this in a discussion.  I asked about a batted ball being deflected out in foul territory, and was told to award 2 bases.  I also recall being told a batted ball was dead when it became dead.  Perhaps our rules guy (state rules guy for several years) wanted it to be that way.  Really don't recall all the details.  Might have talking about a deflected thrown ball.

I would say all balls are dead when they become dead.

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