Positioning questions...

[BLWizzRanger]

2 questions here that I haven't seen.

I did two JC games yesterday and experience the following:

One.   R3 & R2, infield in.  Being in B or C made the area congested.  I went to a 'B' position outside of the basepath.  Is this correct? should I have stayed in C or gone elsewhere? I can see the disadvantage of being outside the basepath and figured out more hustle would be needed but is there a better place?

 

Two. R2 & R1, less than 2 outs, in C position. Can of corn to F9.  He takes a path similar to Jeffrey in the Family Circus cartoon (for the young ones here):

F9 starts toward centerfield so I take the call.  He ends up diving for the ball but the outfield is lower at that point and the grass is high.  I can't see him make the catch and call no catch (but, I didn't see the ball bounce either).  But I was backing up to a point to see the tag at second.  Where can I go to make this call? I cant/shouldn't go out or is there a limit how far to go out? If I go out, should the plate take the tag?  Was that the best call I could make here?  Secondarily, no particular situation, if the fielder starts running around like Jeffrey, is that an automatic going out?

FWIW, he said he did when I asked him a few innings later. Anyways...  Thanks.

 

 

[noumpere]

1) You'll get both answers on this -- so it might depend on personal preference or your assigner's preference.   Personally, I always stayed in -- maybe adjust a step or so to one side or the other to be more out of the way.

2) Once you read trouble, go out.  This play wasn't trouble until it was -- and then you go out.  And, you can try to read the fielder's reactions (and the runners' reactions) to help make the call -- you don't need to make it immediately (but you can't wait more than a second or so -- and that will be enough time)

[Replacematt]

How many umpires? 

[BLWizzRanger]

2-man

[noumpere]

17 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

2-man

Oh.

[HokieUmp]

I was confused on the number of umpires, until that later exchange.

1.  If this was a 90' diamond, you don't go outside the baseline.  *I* back up to the edge of the grass.  In my experience - and it might not be universal - that allows the players to make/attempt plays in the infield without getting in their way, AND I can get to where I need to make a call.

2.  You'd NEVER go out on a fly ball, so you'd just have to do the best you can to get the angle, and be able to check R2 for his tag-up.

[noumpere]

20 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

2.  You'd NEVER go out on a fly ball, so you'd just have to do the best you can to get the angle, and be able to check R2 for his tag-up.

Right -- I'm getting as close to the play as possible without going out and watching the tag up from my peripheral vision.  Although it's not by the book, a good PU will recognize what's happening and be watching as well.

[BLWizzRanger]

23 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

I was confused on the number of umpires, until that later exchange.

1.  If this was a 90' diamond, you don't go outside the baseline.  *I* back up to the edge of the grass.  In my experience - and it might not be universal - that allows the players to make/attempt plays in the infield without getting in their way, AND I can get to where I need to make a call.

2.  You'd NEVER go out on a fly ball, so you'd just have to do the best you can to get the angle, and be able to check R2 for his tag-up.

Well, from what you and noumpere mentioned, I guess I played the second play by the book then.  It didn't feel like a good call on the fly ball because I didn't see the catch and it wasn't an instant showing of the ball from F9. The only solace was the runners only moved up one base and the inning ended on the next batter.

The first play positioning didn't feel right for any bang bang play - like R2 going to 3rd (stealing or just a play on them at 3rd) with a drawn in infield, I would still be on the outside hustling to third and I would probably be late since the secondary lead of R2.  Yes, it was less congested for the IF to make a play, but, everything else I would be horribly out of position and I probably should get back inside if time allowed - say a tag up.

[Richvee]

52 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

 

The first play positioning didn't feel right for any bang bang play - like R2 going to 3rd (stealing or just a play on them at 3rd) with a drawn in infield, I would still be on the outside hustling to third and I would probably be late since the secondary lead of R2.  Yes, it was less congested for the IF to make a play, but, everything else I would be horribly out of position and I probably should get back inside if time allowed - say a tag up.

You keep saying "outside" . You are only outside F6 if he's way in. You're never any farther back than the infield grass/dirt line. I wouldn't call that outside...Just deep "c"

There's not going to be a steal of 3B. R3 would be stealing home and that's where the play is going to be. Infield is in...That means they're trying to cut the run off. 99.9 % of the groundballs are going to home or 1B.  I can't think of many scenarios where a ground ball to an infielder is going to result in a play at 3B. MAYBE on a bunt where there's absolutely no play on R3. In any case, on a groundball,  you're busting into the working area behind the mound  as soon as the bunt is down because you will most likely have  play on the BR @1B. If you've moved into the working area and the  throw does go to 3B, a step or 2 to the 45' line between 3rd and home gives you a nice angle on a tag play on R2 @3rd.  

[BLWizzRanger]

17 minutes ago, Richvee said:

You keep saying "outside" . You are only outside F6 if he's way in. You're never any farther back than the infield grass/dirt line. I wouldn't call that outside...Just deep "c"

There's not going to be a steal of 3B. R3 would be stealing home and that's where the play is going to be. Infield is in...That means they're trying to cut the run off. 99.9 % of the groundballs are going to home or 1B.  I can't think of many scenarios where a ground ball to an infielder is going to result in a play at 3B. MAYBE on a bunt where there's absolutely no play on R3. In any case, on a groundball,  you're busting into the working area behind the mound  as soon as the bunt is down because you will most likely have  play on the BR @1B. If you've moved into the working area and the  throw does go to 3B, a step or 2 to the 45' line between 3rd and home gives you a nice angle on a tag play on R2 @3rd.  

Yeah, I understand the IF playing up is to stop the player on 3rd from scoring, I won't go out on the limb and say that there is 'never' a play at third during this situation.  This is baseball.  For example the catcher blocks a ball and it kicks up the 3rd base line where he can't get R3 scoring but, hey, R2 was sleeping and he didn't get a good jump.  F2 throws out R2 at 3rd.  Or, F6 dives at a ball and knocks it down to where there is no play at home but he tries to get R2 at 3rd.  I know these are extreme examples but could happen especially in high school...

When I say outside, I am meaning toward the outfield side of the imaginary straight line between the bases.  Sorry if I am confusing this with the base path. And yes, I was still in the dirt.  What I gather from you is my first movement should almost always be into the working area - don't stay outside.

 

[HokieUmp]

3 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

When I say outside, I am meaning toward the outfield side of the imaginary straight line between the bases.  Sorry if I am confusing this with the base path. And yes, I was still in the dirt.  What I gather from you is my first movement should almost always be into the working area - don't stay outside.

But that's the point @Richvee's making - you ARE NEVER outside.  Even with that modified definition of "outside" you just mentioned.  You don't start out there;  you don't end up out there.  It's not "don't stay outside," it's "don't be outside."

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Yeah, I understand the IF playing up is to stop the player on 3rd from scoring, I won't go out on the limb and say that there is 'never' a play at third during this situation.  This is baseball.  For example the catcher blocks a ball and it kicks up the 3rd base line where he can't get R3 scoring but, hey, R2 was sleeping and he didn't get a good jump.  F2 throws out R2 at 3rd.  Or, F6 dives at a ball and knocks it down to where there is no play at home but he tries to get R2 at 3rd.  I know these are extreme examples but could happen especially in high school...

When I say outside, I am meaning toward the outfield side of the imaginary straight line between the bases.  Sorry if I am confusing this with the base path. And yes, I was still in the dirt.  What I gather from you is my first movement should almost always be into the working area - don't stay outside.

 

Never ever ever start in the dirt. The infield grass/dirt line is the line of demarcation. If the grass/ dirt line is where F 6 is playing, stay inside him in normal C. If F6 is way in that’s when you can move back to the grass/ dirt line. This lets you get into position for plays at any base with just a few steps. 

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, Richvee said:

Never ever ever start in the dirt. The infield grass/dirt line is the line of demarcation. If the grass/ dirt line is where F 6 is playing, stay inside him in normal C. If F6 is way in that’s when you can move back to the grass/ dirt line. This lets you get into position for plays at any base with just a few steps. 

If F6 is playing the normal "in" he usually is right at the grass line or will be there as the pitch starts. I like to be next to him in deep C. Normal C is where he usually ends up on a dribbler when he charges and I don't want to be trying to get out of his way. Always an eye on F5 for a possible pick from F1 and if the pitch gets to the catcher I am taking a step or two to be ready for a backpick, an eye on F5 helping there also.

[Richvee]

47 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If F6 is playing the normal "in" he usually is right at the grass line or will be there as the pitch starts. I like to be next to him in deep C. Normal C is where he usually ends up on a dribbler when he charges and I don't want to be trying to get out of his way. Always an eye on F5 for a possible pick from F1 and if the pitch gets to the catcher I am taking a step or two to be ready for a backpick, an eye on F5 helping there also.

No issues there. Probably the only time I’m staying normal C is on  turf where F6 has a tendency to be a little deeper on the carpet. 

[BLWizzRanger]

OK, start lambasting me.  This was an all-dirt infield.  Grass line in my mind for this situation/game was IF/OF line and not in-front of base-grass line. I don't know why you guys couldn't see that... lol... I was standing OF side of second on C side. Maybe that will help.

So, after reading all of these again and using yall's perspective, stay in deep C, giving F6 room to make a play (can I say like the room given F3 when in A?). If a grass IF, stay in the grass.  Maybe moving to the edge if F6 starts in front of the edge.  I actually started in this general area for the first pitch or two but didn't feel comfortable there.  I will have to get over that.

Thanks guys.

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

OK, start lambasting me.  This was an all-dirt infield.  Grass line in my mind for this situation/game was IF/OF line and not in-front of base-grass line. I don't know why you guys couldn't see that... lol... I was standing OF side of second on C side. Maybe that will help.

Yeah , you don’t want to be out there in 2 man. When you’re in B or C in 2 man you are never starting on the outfield side of the bases. Ever. With F6 in, get where you’re most comfortable. In front of, next to , behind. … it’s all going to depend on where F6 is and your comfort zone. 

[MadMax]

5 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

This was an all-dirt infield. 

What is this, softball? 

5 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I actually started in this general area for the first pitch or two but didn't feel comfortable there.  I will have to get over that.

You said “JC ball”… Typo? J_V_ ball? A Junior College game, even “fall ball” stuff, is relegated to a poor, pathetic skinned infield? Ugh. 

Obviously, level / intensity of play influences a lot of this positional decision; however, there is a recent Ex-MLB Umpire here in Phoenix who is encouraging us to “get out of our comfort zone” on these situations and we’ll find the following positioning to be to our benefit – in terms of being in, seeing, and selling calls – than to our hazard or peril. What he’s advising, with the infield in, is a position I’ve called the C-Hatch-Cover. Typically (for here), there is a sprinkler head or hatch access cover to the hose outlet about 3 feet behind the mound. The BU takes up a position, hands-on-knees (ie. Ready) with his left foot behind this hatch cover (maybe another 3-5 feet), shaded to C. The F6 should be off to his right and behind. This is not a position for the cowardly lion, nor for the sluggish-of-shoe. This does, however, put you in a much more engaged position, able to turn and see a lined ball enter the glove of all 4 infielders, especially of F4 and F6. You are also able to maintain a much better angle for a backpick (from F2) to F5 upon R3, you are more responsive to a hotshot being cutoff and a throw or tag attempt made upon R3, stuck between 3B and HP, and if R3 is either frozen to 3B or he’s to the HP such that the defense abandons a play on him and then throws on to 1B, you’re already in a better position than at C Deep. 

Consider it. 

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

You said “JC ball”… Typo? J_V_ ball? A Junior College game, even “fall ball” stuff, is relegated to a poor, pathetic skinned infield? Ugh. 

Obviously, level / intensity of play influences a lot of this positional decision; however, there is a recent Ex-MLB Umpire here in Phoenix who is encouraging us to “get out of our comfort zone” on these situations and we’ll find the following positioning to be to our benefit – in terms of being in, seeing, and selling calls – than to our hazard or peril. What he’s advising, with the infield in, is a position I’ve called the C-Hatch-Cover. Typically (for here), there is a sprinkler head or hatch access cover to the hose outlet about 3 feet behind the mound. The BU takes up a position, hands-on-knees (ie. Ready) with his left foot behind this hatch cover (maybe another 3-5 feet), shaded to C. The F6 should be off to his right and behind. This is not a position for the cowardly lion, nor for the sluggish-of-shoe. This does, however, put you in a much more engaged position, able to turn and see a lined ball enter the glove of all 4 infielders, especially of F4 and F6. You are also able to maintain a much better angle for a backpick (from F2) to F5 upon R3, you are more responsive to a hotshot being cutoff and a throw or tag attempt made upon R3, stuck between 3B and HP, and if R3 is either frozen to 3B or he’s to the HP such that the defense abandons a play on him and then throws on to 1B, you’re already in a better position than at C Deep. 

Consider it. 

I use a similar position.

To your first comment: There is a school in one of our D3 conferences that until a few years ago played at whatever local field that was open. They once had a DH postponed because the HS field they thought they had obtained was double-booked with a JV game, and as the JV team was part of the HS, that took precedence. Now they have seasonal contracts with one site.

[BLWizzRanger]

Yeah, JC ball.  Dirt, not clay. Home team had a decidedly fielding advantage. They should have named it Strawberry Field.  Had two mini tornadoes during the games.  On the bright side I learned how to clean my shoes again. First world problems.

To paraphrase everyone, suck it up and get into 'C'.  Got it.

 

 

[Kevin_K]

8 hours ago, MadMax said:

What is this, softball? 

You said “JC ball”… Typo? J_V_ ball? A Junior College game, even “fall ball” stuff, is relegated to a poor, pathetic skinned infield? Ugh. 

Obviously, level / intensity of play influences a lot of this positional decision; however, there is a recent Ex-MLB Umpire here in Phoenix who is encouraging us to “get out of our comfort zone” on these situations and we’ll find the following positioning to be to our benefit – in terms of being in, seeing, and selling calls – than to our hazard or peril. What he’s advising, with the infield in, is a position I’ve called the C-Hatch-Cover. Typically (for here), there is a sprinkler head or hatch access cover to the hose outlet about 3 feet behind the mound. The BU takes up a position, hands-on-knees (ie. Ready) with his left foot behind this hatch cover (maybe another 3-5 feet), shaded to C. The F6 should be off to his right and behind. This is not a position for the cowardly lion, nor for the sluggish-of-shoe. This does, however, put you in a much more engaged position, able to turn and see a lined ball enter the glove of all 4 infielders, especially of F4 and F6. You are also able to maintain a much better angle for a backpick (from F2) to F5 upon R3, you are more responsive to a hotshot being cutoff and a throw or tag attempt made upon R3, stuck between 3B and HP, and if R3 is either frozen to 3B or he’s to the HP such that the defense abandons a play on him and then throws on to 1B, you’re already in a better position than at C Deep. 

Consider it. 

This positioning is optimal.

Associations around here at the HS level teach the deep C, but that positioning runs counter to both angle and distance for any plays anywhere but 2B. It also allows you to stay out of the throwing lanes to 1B when F6 or F5 are charging a ground ball. The position may be a little hairy with a screamer up the middle, but the odds are in our favor that the ball is headed somewhere else.