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Runner makes contact with the SS


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OBR:     

Situation: R2 and R1 planted on the bases.  Ball is hit to SS and R2 makes contact before the SS can make the play on the ball.   Obviously. R2 is out,  but how exactly is this interference enforced?   Immediate dead ball?    And what about the potential Dbl play??? 

In the delayed dead ball situation,  what happen next was that the SS fields the ball,   and in his haste overthrows 1B.  Now its a merry go round.  

   

 

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Immediate dead ball.

R2 out.

B/R gets first base.

R 1 gets second base because of the force.

‘Non forced —if any—runners return to base at TOI 

‘If you believe the interference was intentional in order to break up a DP you can call B/R out as well.

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2 hours ago, Guest newb said:

In the delayed dead ball situation,  what happen next was that the SS fields the ball,   and in his haste overthrows 1B.

There is no Delayed Dead Ball... Interference here is an immediate dead ball. An umpire's call should be "That's Interference! Time!" (thereby killing the live baseball). 

Yes, R2 is Out for the (his) Interference. Here's where this breaks down further:

  • If there were 2 Outs at TOP, then this is the 3rd Out, inning is over.
  • If there was 1 Out at TOP, then you/an umpire have to judge the batted ball and impending play. Routine grounder? Then we've got an Out on the Interference, and we can call R1 or BR Out because R2's act of INT was to break up a DP. 3 Outs, inning is over. Otherwise, if this was a smash into the gap, and the F6 would have otherwise had to make a play and throw on in the attempt to get 1 Out, then we've got R2 Out on his INT, and BR is placed (we use the term "placed", not "awarded") on 1B, while R1 because he is forced, is placed at 2B. The crux is that the umpire must judge whether a DP attempt was possible or not. 
  • [!! -- THIS IS NOT VALID -- !!] Here's where it gets a little tricky – If there was 0 Outs at TOP, then you/an umpire have to judge the batted ball and impending play. Routine grounder that a "normal" set of infielders turns into a 6-4-3 Double Play? We could conceivably get 3 outs here; 1 for R2's INT, and 2 more from the prevented DP. This last one I'm uncertain about (I've never been in this situation before), so someone else may have a more applicable answer. Otherwise, if this wasn't a routine grounder, then we've got an interpretation just like the previous one.
Edited by MadMax
Flagged / Noted that my 3rd point is incorrect; to be fair, I wasn't going to delete it, but it is not valid
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1 hour ago, Guest newb said:

OBR:     

Situation: R2 and R1 planted on the bases.  Ball is hit to SS and R2 makes contact before the SS can make the play on the ball.   Obviously. R2 is out,  but how exactly is this interference enforced?   Immediate dead ball?    And what about the potential Dbl play??? 

In the delayed dead ball situation,  what happen next was that the SS fields the ball,   and in his haste overthrows 1B.  Now its a merry go round.  

   

 

1. Makes contact with what...the ball or the fielder?   If he made contact with the batted ball then there's no consideration for a potential DP (unless intentional).   And, like above, it's immediate dead ball.

2. INT doesn't always need contact, and contact doesn't always mean INT.   If F6 was able to field the ball was he really hindered?  No hindrance, no interference.

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

If there was 1 Out at TOP, then you/an umpire have to judge the batted ball and impending play. Routine grounder? Then we've got an Out on the Interference, and we can call R1 or BR Out because R2's act of INT was to break up a DP.

Isn't it always the batter for the second out -   6.01(a)(6)??

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From the 2016 BRD (section 342, p. 224)

OBR:  “With a double play possible, two are out if the interference is obvious, willful and deliberate, and is designed to break up a double play, whether the umpire judges the double play could have been completed or not.”

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.7, p. 97):

…”Keep in mind the rules provide that the runner or batter-runner must interfere with the obvious attempt to break up a double play.”

2021 OBR rule 6.01(a)

(6)  If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner (see Rule 6.01(j));

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1 hour ago, MadMax said:

There is no Delayed Dead Ball... Interference here is an immediate dead ball. An umpire's call should be "That's Interference! Time!" (thereby killing the live baseball). 

Yes, R2 is Out for the (his) Interference. Here's where this breaks down further:

  • If there were 2 Outs at TOP, then this is the 3rd Out, inning is over.
  • If there was 1 Out at TOP, then you/an umpire have to judge the batted ball and impending play. Routine grounder? Then we've got an Out on the Interference, and we can call R1 or BR Out because R2's act of INT was to break up a DP. 3 Outs, inning is over. Otherwise, if this was a smash into the gap, and the F6 would have otherwise had to make a play and throw on in the attempt to get 1 Out, then we've got R2 Out on his INT, and BR is placed (we use the term "placed", not "awarded") on 1B, while R1 because he is forced, is placed at 2B. The crux is that the umpire must judge whether a DP attempt was possible or not. 
  • Here's where it gets a little tricky – If there was 0 Outs at TOP, then you/an umpire have to judge the batted ball and impending play. Routine grounder that a "normal" set of infielders turns into a 6-4-3 Double Play? We could conceivably get 3 outs here; 1 for R2's INT, and 2 more from the prevented DP. This last one I'm uncertain about (I've never been in this situation before), so someone else may have a more applicable answer. Otherwise, if this wasn't a routine grounder, then we've got an interpretation just like the previous one.

Those last two points are incorrect for OBR. And, even in FED, I don't think there's any provision for a triple play.

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32 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

2. INT doesn't always need contact, and contact doesn't always mean INT.   If F6 was able to field the ball was he really hindered?  No hindrance, no interference.

From the way the OP reads, and the way he's stating "Delayed Dead Ball", he knows this was Interference... what he is/was uncertain about was how it immediately changes the status of the baseball (from Live to Dead, with the killing word being "Time!"). It reads that R2 "made contact" and was guilty of Interference. Because the umpire didn't call "Time!" (which he should have), F6 reacted in a panic and still tried to throw out BR at 1B... which he didn't have to, because any action after that type of Interference is null, void, and moot. 

Yes, you are correct that if the fielder isn't hindered, then there's no Interference; however, in this play, it reads as if hinderance / interference did indeed happen. 

39 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Isn't it always the batter for the second out -   6.01(a)(6)??

So after re-reading what I typed, and reading a few of the other replies, I myself am confused as to who would be out on the second Out. Here's why: 

  1. If we have R2 only, then we obviously don't have a DP possible. Thus, if R2 commits INT against F6 on a ground ball, R2 is Out and BR is placed at 1B, regardless of F6 throwing to 1B in time to beat BR (for an apparent second out). Right? Right.
  2. If we have R1 and R2, we have a DP possible. Thus, if R2 commits INT against F6 on a ground ball, and it is judged to be hindering or impeding that Double Play, then we've got R2 with the first Out (on INT) and we call BR out(?). Yes? BR? If that's the case, then where does R1 go? Back to 1B then? I'm not disputing with that, if that's the case.
  3. There are situations, albeit very rare ones, that a DP is possible, and that second Out isn't called on BR... because the BR is the one who is guilty of the Interference. Please correct me if I'm wrong (any/all of you), but if we've got bases loaded, less than 2 outs, and Batter bunts or gets sawn off to bat a Fair ball out in front of the plate, impedes the F2 (who is the protected fielder) from getting to the ball so as to make a play upon R3 (who is Forced), that R3 can be called Out?
26 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Those last two points are incorrect for OBR.

Señor Azul just cited the OBR ruling that it is, for a DP, correct: 

59 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

OBR:  “With a double play possible, two are out if the interference is obvious, willful and deliberate, and is designed to break up a double play, whether the umpire judges the double play could have been completed or not.”

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.7, p. 97):

…”Keep in mind the rules provide that the runner or batter-runner must interfere with the obvious attempt to break up a double play.”

2021 OBR rule 6.01(a)

(6)  If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter-runner because of the action of his teammate. In no event may bases be run or runs scored because of such action by a runner (see Rule 6.01(j));

On my 3rd point (triple play?), yeah, I'm incorrect.

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1 hour ago, MadMax said:

There are situations, albeit very rare ones, that a DP is possible, and that second Out isn't called on BR... because the BR is the one who is guilty of the Interference. Please correct me if I'm wrong (any/all of you), but if we've got bases loaded, less than 2 outs, and Batter bunts or gets sawn off to bat a Fair ball out in front of the plate, impedes the F2 (who is the protected fielder) from getting to the ball so as to make a play upon R3 (who is Forced), that R3 can be called Out?

6.01(a)(6) deals with the runner committing INT (with intent to break up DP) - runner out, and batter out - quoted above by Mr. Blue.

6.01(a)(7) deals with batter-runner committing INT (with intent to break up DP) - BR out, runner closest to home out 

 

(7)  If, in the judgment of the umpire, a batter-runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball, with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead; the umpire shall call the batter-runner out for interference and shall call out the runner who had advanced closest to the home plate regardless where the double play might have been possible. In no event shall bases be run because of such interference (see Rule 6.01(j));

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2 hours ago, MadMax said:

Señor Azul just cited the OBR ruling that it is, for a DP, correct: 

 

You stated that if it was a routine grounder, then we'd get two outs.  That's not true  for OBR.  We'd only get the out if the INT was "willful and deliberately designed to prevent a double play" (or whatever the specific words are -- they were cited above).  In practice, this happens never.

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