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IFF, Confusion ensues, Ejections.


johnnyg08

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27 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

 

Too much too process at this late hour but it’s possible some of this crew will not be in the post season. U2 does not recognize an IFF and calls an out on a failure to tag up and then calls time. PU who knows what he was doing. U3 does give a late signal. Still need slomo to really judge what happened. 

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27 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Too much too process at this late hour but it’s possible some of this crew will not be in the post season. U2 does not recognize an IFF and calls an out on a failure to tag up and then calls time. PU who knows what he was doing. U3 does give a late signal. Still need slomo to really judge what happened. 

Not a tag up.  He was coming from first so he was called out on the force.  But there was no force because of the IFF.  Runner thinks he's out and walks off of the base and then gets tagged out after the timeout.  Only fair thing to do, and the right thing, is to place the runners on 2nd and 3rd.  They also gave Schildt a lot of leeway because they knew they screwed up.  Sometimes weird things happen.

 

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Too much too process at this late hour but it’s possible some of this crew will not be in the post season. U2 does not recognize an IFF and calls an out on a failure to tag up and then calls time. PU who knows what he was doing. U3 does give a late signal. Still need slomo to really judge what happened. 

It was a great on-time call by Morales (U3) Go watch Gil’s video. He signals immediately.


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4 hours ago, Catch18 said:


It was a great on-time call by Morales (U3) Go watch Gil’s video. He signals immediately.


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I see a signal when the ball drops. I was under the impression that we still point and signal when the IFF is possible with a ball near the foul line and add "if fair". Did Morales wait to signal until the ball was fair and is that the proper technique? 

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13 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

They sure do...I'd like to discuss it here to see what people have to say in this forum. 

Agreed -- I (almost) never look at that forum -- it's fine if you want to play the umpire ejection fantasy league (or whatever it's called) -- play discussion should be in the other parts of the forum.  JMO, of course

 

For me -- the umpires got it right.  U3 called the infield fly (a pop up in the infield is always going to be an infield fly in MLB -- even if F5 was never really under the ball).  then R1 was out because U2 made an incorrect call.  That can be fixed by going to "what would have happened" had he made the correct call -- and that leave two outs, and R2, R3.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

I see a signal when the ball drops. I was under the impression that we still point and signal when the IFF is possible with a ball near the foul line and add "if fair". Did Morales wait to signal until the ball was fair and is that the proper technique? 

He did not - he was signaling well before the ball landed.

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4 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I see a signal when the ball drops. I was under the impression that we still point and signal when the IFF is possible with a ball near the foul line and add "if fair". Did Morales wait to signal until the ball was fair and is that the proper technique? 

Would a “safe” signal hurt on the play @ 3rd?  

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2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

He did signal before the ball landed so he wasn't waiting for fair or foul.

Right.  Thus my response.  You asked "Did Morales wait to signal," I responded that he did not, as he'd had his arm up well before the ball came down.  I can't speak to MLB/MiLB proper technique, but MY teaching has been what you described - point and say "infield fly," adding "if fair" if there might be some doubt to the ball's status.

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2 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

Right.  Thus my response.  You asked "Did Morales wait to signal," I responded that he did not, as he'd had his arm up well before the ball came down.  I can't speak to MLB/MiLB proper technique, but MY teaching has been what you described - point and say "infield fly," adding "if fair" if there might be some doubt to the ball's status.

While that's the correct mechanic, it's just that--a mechanic.  Saying it or not, on a ball in the middle of the diamond or near the line, that stays fair or rolls foul, doesn't chance the resulting ruling.

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10 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

Right.  Thus my response.  You asked "Did Morales wait to signal," I responded that he did not, as he'd had his arm up well before the ball came down.  I can't speak to MLB/MiLB proper technique, but MY teaching has been what you described - point and say "infield fly," adding "if fair" if there might be some doubt to the ball's status.

He didn't wait but took a little time to process but less time than the PU.

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8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

While that's the correct mechanic, it's just that--a mechanic.  Saying it or not, on a ball in the middle of the diamond or near the line, that stays fair or rolls foul, doesn't chance the resulting ruling.

I get all that;  I do.  I was just answering the question Jimurray asked, based on what I saw on the different camera angles.  The out call at 2B led to the ensuing cluster, but an IF is an IF is an IF.  (One of Shakespeare's lesser known quotes)

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32 minutes ago, Velho said:

And U2 is certainly quoting Lady Macbeth at the moment.

The quote should be an IF, no force, is an IF, no force, is an IF no force. After seeing a MiLB or might have been MLB guy call a force out at 3B quite a few years ago I added a non verbal no force after my IF call and trained new guys to always tell themselves no force when calling IF. I think another call like that happened again either in college or MiLB in more recent memory which further reinforced my resolution to marry IF with no force

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5 hours ago, flyingron said:

Wasn't trying to redirect discussion, just wanted to provide additional information.

 

Appreciate it. I think some folks get lazy and just say or think "Go to ccs...for the answer" There's certainly a place for that...but there's also value in discussing things on here...we have some knowledgable folks among us and sometimes I think CCS (While very good) does not allow for a ton of back and forth on gray area stuff.

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On 9/27/2021 at 12:03 AM, Jimurray said:

Too much too process at this late hour but it’s possible some of this crew will not be in the post season. U2 does not recognize an IFF and calls an out on a failure to tag up and then calls time. PU who knows what he was doing. U3 does give a late signal. Still need slomo to really judge what happened. 

do they rescind a post season event selection if something happens during the time span after the selection.

and how is IFFIF taught at the umpire schools. who calls, when, how loud, pointing (in air or after hitting ground), echoing, etc.

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Does anyone know if U3 verbalized this...we see him point...then we see PU point (presumably because he saw U3's signal)...but it's quite evident that U2, R1 and R2 were not aware...not to mention the defense who played for the force rather than tag.  Goldschmidt seemed to realize right at the end that it was an IFF, but judging by his reaction to the force at second, he wasn't aware at that point...I think he finally noticed U3 pointing (or maybe even saying something) right at the end.

I see two options - U3 didn't verbalize...or he was drowned out by crowd noise.   Am I wrong to expect a pro ump to come up HUGE with this call?   A non-verbal signal isn't good enough here...the players are looking at the ball, not the umpires.

Ending this play with only one out is the right thing to do, but frankly, IMO, if IFF is communicated properly, loudly and in time, those runners stay on first and second...otherwise, R2 is tagged out by about ten feet at third.

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38 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Does anyone know if U3 verbalized this...we see him point...then we see PU point (presumably because he saw U3's signal)...but it's quite evident that U2, R1 and R2 were not aware...not to mention the defense who played for the force rather than tag.  Goldschmidt seemed to realize right at the end that it was an IFF, but judging by his reaction to the force at second, he wasn't aware at that point...I think he finally noticed U3 pointing (or maybe even saying something) right at the end.

I see two options - U3 didn't verbalize...or he was drowned out by crowd noise.   Am I wrong to expect a pro ump to come up HUGE with this call?   A non-verbal signal isn't good enough here...the players are looking at the ball, not the umpires.

Ending this play with only one out is the right thing to do, but frankly, IMO, if IFF is communicated properly, loudly and in time, those runners stay on first and second...otherwise, R2 is tagged out by about ten feet at third.

If you were in the coach box and that pop was hit that high wouldn't you be saying "stay on the base." While Miller says Eddings was unaware he somehow realized that he had called an improper force almost right away. Maybe F5's path to the ball generated some doubt in the PU, U1 and U2. A verbal might have helped the players in the immediate vicinity but even in high school coaches have missed my verbal due to noise. I don't put much stock in my verbal being heard or noticed even at my levels.

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