Jump to content
  • 0

Run scored before 3rd out


Guest Chris

Question

Guest Chris

Here’s the situation. There are runners on 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs. Batter hits a ground ball to 3rd baseman. Instead of throwing to first to get the force, the third baseman chases down the runner on second (who is retreating back towards the second base bag), and tags him out. It’s possible the runner on 3rd scored BEFORE the tag out, however it’s also just as likely the batter himself never reached first base before the runner on second was tagged for the third out. Does the run count?

 

Our team’s argument is that it should not count because the batter never made it (and occupied) first base on the play, and the tag was (likely) made before the runner made it to first. We also argued that since the runner (likely) didn’t make it to first until after the tag, the 3rd baseman still had a force out option at first even though he chose to tag the runner, and therefore the run shouldn’t could. If the runner makes it successfully to first before the tag is made, then I can understand how the run would count, since the only option for an out at that point is not a force. I know it’s a judgment call on which happened first, the tag or the runner making it to first, but the 3rd baseman had a much shorter run to tag the runner vs the batter who had to make it all the way down the line to first, so it seems likely a fair assumption. 
 

Does the likelihood that the batter didn’t make it to First before the tag negate the likelihood that the runner on 3rd crossed the plate before the tag out for the third out?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

There's no "force" here possible at all.    Throwing to first to get the batter-runner out, would have made the run not count, but it's technically not a force.

If you're claiming because the unforced R2 runner was put out before BR got to first makes the run not count, that's not right.   This is a time play unless you made a play on the batter runner to get him out.   Since the third out was on R2, this is a time play and if R3 got to the plate before R2 was put out, the run counts.

The key (if you're using OBR) is this from 5.08(a) 

How a Team Scores (a)  One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

 

If the batter did indeed reach first safely, even after the third out, then any discussion is moot.   The exception for the run scored is the batter making the third out (before reaching first)...nothing about whether or not he reaches first before the third out on another player.

If the batter NEVER reached first base (or is still lying in a heap with a shattered leg in the batter's box) there is some debate, in possibly one rule set, that you could do the so-called advantageous fourth out appeal and get the out on the batter to negate the run.   I believe is is a non-issue in OBR.  The batter didn't "miss" first base so it's not appealable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Long story short, you are incorrect.  The rule about the batter reaching first and run not scoring is only applicable when the BATTER is the one you got out.  Your fielder chose to make a put-out on R2, thus, the run counting is only subject to did R3 cross home plate before the tag out or not

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Chris, you have received three very good answers to your question and now I would like to tell you how the scorekeepers count this in the book. The batter-runner in your scenario is considered to be left on base (LOB) by rule…

2021 OBR rule 9.02 The official score report prepared by the Official Scorer shall be in a form prescribed by the league and shall include…

(g) Number of runners left on base by each team. This total shall include all runners who get on base by any means and who do not score and are not put out. The Official Scorer shall include in this total a batter-runner whose batted ball results in another runner being retired for the third out.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

For your reading pleasure, Mr. Catch18. All of the following can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15) (this is the very first entry in the 2016 edition)…

Here’s the official interpretation for FED:

Hopkins:  If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out.

Play 2-3:  R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling:  In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation 4-3…

OBR Official Interpretation 4-3: Wendelstedt:  Play 2-3 does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one.

In addition, the 2019-2020 College Baseball Rules Study Guide by George Demetriou states the following…

“Also, if the defense gains a third out during play and the batter-runner has not reached first at the time of the out, a fourth out appeal can negate all runs scored on the play.”

Play 4-89 With runners on second and third and two out, B1 singles to right, but pulls his groin and cannot advance. R3 scores, but R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. Ruling:  A fourth out appeal on B1 will cancel the run.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Yes, I stand corrected. Although I was eluding to the 99.99999% of times a team ends the inning on the OP tag play (honestly in 24 years have never had it). And I would always agree we need to be rules knowledgeable to be ready for anything & everything. My comment was more tongue & cheek.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Mr. Catch18, it was not my intention to correct you or criticize you in any way. I was trying to show you that Mr. beerguy55 was alluding to an actual interpretation even though it seems as if everyone here (including me) thinks it is a completely wrongheaded interpretation. In fact, Carl Childress himself actually wrote in that entry that he thought it was the most irrational interpretation he has ever encountered.

I knew what Mr. beerguy55 was talking about and it seemed to me that you thought he was way off base (pun intended) with his comment. You see, that interpretation has been a topic of discussion at least twice before. I tried to convey to you that I was trying to be helpful and not critical by the first words I typed—“For your reading pleasure.”

Obviously, I failed at that. Please believe me—there were no intended implications that you were not rules knowledgeable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
17 hours ago, Catch18 said:

 


A logical impossibility. The inning is over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

You would think so, but baseball scorekeeping sometimes has to evade logic -  the batter is indeed credited with reaching first base on a fielder's choice...and, as shown above, is counted as "left on base".:HD:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...