Another OBS situation

[humanbackstop19]

First, I plucked this off a board on facebook.  Responses were all over the place, so wanted to see how it does on here.  FED rules......So, it's given that the OBS is a delayed dead ball.  The primary debate is when to kill the baseball.  

 

Runner on first base. Batter hits one in the gap. As R1 crossed second he is obstructed by the short stop. A play is made on R1 and he is called out at third base. The B/R overruns second base, the third base man throws to second but throws the ball into right field. The B/R goes to third and is safe at home.

When the ball became dead at the end of playing action the base umpire called time and awarded R1 home because of the obstruction. He told the coach that R1 needed to come out of the dugout and touch third then touch home.

Did the umpire do right as per the obstruction rule?

If defense appealed would R1 be out because he touched home after a preceding runner?

[beerguy55]

I would say no, and I would also say the runner was not required to come out of the dugout to touch the bases.   Can the umpire not award the touch if OBS occurred?

At some point common sense has to prevail.

Who is indicating OBS and then who called R2 out at third? Same umpire??  Is that the right process to call him out THEN call OBS (regardless of whether there's any other action going on)?

The only reason  R1 went to the dugout is the umpire told him he was out.   His award should have been third, and then he'd advance to home on the errant throw...if the ump hadn't told him he was out.

He shouldn't need to touch the bases so the appeal would be moot.  And even if he did, no appeal should be allowed as the running infraction was a result of the umpire's call.

 

In OBR this would be Type B, so also a delayed dead ball, right?  So would OBR be any different?

[HokieUmp]

[Two replies deleted - answering strictly from OBR, and then I realized/remembered this was under the FED part of the site.]

[UMP45]

11 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

[Two replies deleted - answering strictly from OBR, and then I realized/remembered this was under the FED part of the site.]

You're going to have to do better in the future! LOL😁

[HokieUmp]

57 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

In OBR this would be Type B, so also a delayed dead ball, right?  So would OBR be any different?

In OBR, the play would be killed on the tag attempt of R1 at 3rd.  6.01(h)(1).  So while the subsequent throw into RF might happen - and would be extremely entertaining - it would be irrelevant.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, HokieUmp said:

In OBR, the play would be killed on the tag attempt of R1 at 3rd.  6.01(h)(1).  So while the subsequent throw into RF might happen - and would be extremely entertaining - it would be irrelevant.

In OBR the play would be killed on the tag if the runner was out. If he was safe play would be continued. 

[Senor Azul]

Under Federation rules, obstruction is always a delayed dead ball. That means the ball becomes dead only after all runners have gone as far as possible so that the defense can record outs or commit errors. See case book plays 8.3.2A and D.

·        From the FED definition (rule 2-22-1):  When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action…

·        Obstruction appears in the delayed dead ball table in rule 5 as item number 4 with no conditions or qualifiers…

·        FED rule 5-1-2b—it is a delayed dead ball when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a batter or runner…

·        FED rule 5-1-3—The ball becomes dead when time is taken to make an award when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a runner…

2019 FED 8.3.2 SITUATION D:  With one out, R2 and R1. B4 hits ground ball directly to F1 who throws to F5 for the force on R2 at third. F5 then throws to F3 in time to put out B4. F6 holds R2, preventing him from advancing to third. RULING:  The umpire will call obstruction when it occurs, and then call time after runners have advanced as far as possible, which in this situation would probably be second for R1. R2 will then be awarded third. Because of the obstruction of F6, the out at first stands. B4’s out stands. B4 was not affected by the obstruction. B5 will come to bat with two outs and R2 is on third and R1 is on second base.

[HokieUmp]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

In OBR the play would be killed on the tag if the runner was out. If he was safe play would be continued. 

Is that under a separate interpretation?  Because the text of the rule says:  "If a play is being made on the obstructed runner ... the ball is dead ... (and then talks about awarding runners where they'd be in umpire judgement).  But that wording doesn't break down a difference between a safe/out call.

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, HokieUmp said:

Is that under a separate interpretation?  Because the text of the rule says:  "If a play is being made on the obstructed runner ... the ball is dead ... (and then talks about awarding runners where they'd be in umpire judgement).  But that wording doesn't break down a difference between a safe/out call.

That's type 1 OBS where a play is being made on the runner as he is obstructed. The OP is type 2. The play is after he was obstructed. I can see why the wording could be interpreted as type 1 even when you read 6.01h(2); "(2)  If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction." 

But PBUC/MiLBUM/MLBUM clear up when to call time for type 1 and 2 and the position of the batter-runner and where the batted ball ends up. They also allow base awards on a thrown ball out of play that was type 1 OBS. Somebody else will have to copy and paste that as I can't.

[agdz59]

Can I extend this thread with a related, potential obstruction I had to deal with last night?

Adult men's wood bat league playing under FED rules.  R1 and R2.  Batter hits a hard shot directly to F5 playing maybe 10 feet from 3B.  Plenty of time to walk over and touch the bag - except F5 cannot get a handle on the ball until he's bumbled his way to where R2 is sliding into 3B while he is literally straddling the bag on the 2b side with one hand gripping the ball on the ground and his glove on the ground between R2's foot and 3B.  He finally grips the ball and touches 3B while R2's sliding foot reaches his glove in front of the base.

I had an out.  But what if he never gripped the ball until after R2 is tangled in F5's glove and arms?  Does it count as he's still in the act of making a play while the runner is in the act of reaching the base?  I think I would have called obstruction if it had gotten that far but, in my judgement he touched the bag before the runner's slide engaged with his person.  Should that still have been obstruction?  I didn't see any hesitation on R2's part before sliding.

 

[maven]

If we specify FED rules, there's no debate about when the ball's dead. It's dead at the end of playing action.

The interesting question is what to do with the BR. Ignoring him and his subsequent action, the award is easy: protect R1 into 3B. 

As play unfolded, it sounds as if R1 left the field after being retired, and BR continued to advance as the defense threw the ball around. 

 We do not "adjust" R1's award because the BR scored on the overthrow: that's not required to nullify the OBS. And we do not let BR's advance to HP stand, as if he somehow magically jumped over R1 without being called out for passing. 

We get R1 out of the dugout and put him on 3B, and send the BR back to 2B. Even though the defense might have had a legitimate chance to retire him at 2B without the OBS, I'm giving the offense the benefit of the doubt here.

I guess somebody might contend that the defense threw the ball away, which would have allowed both runners to score. I would not be that somebody, because that's irrelevant to our task of nullifying the OBS.

No, coach, you don't have an option to decline the penalty. It's not football.

[SH0102]

I agree with Maven…if the OBS runner was thrown “out”, the call is not to call out but to call Time and declare the obstructed runner safe due to the obstruction, and then award others as needed.  The play ends there.  The fact that they frantically threw to second is irrelevant….again, this is based on the obstructed runner being thrown “out”; if that doesn’t happen, it’s play on.

My follow up question would be what if the umpire who called OBS and saw it is not the one who called him out at third? (Ex, U1 called OBS by first base from B and HPU rotated to third not realizing he was obstructed)  would that fall on BU to “come up big” and kill it when he sees HPU call him out?

 

[Senor Azul]

Good golly, Mr. SH0102, you and Mr. maven sure have created a dilemma for me. Who should I believe?--you two or Carl Childress who said in his 2016 BRD (section 370, p. 246) that under FED rules, “The ball becomes dead (on obstruction) only after runners have gone as far as possible which allows the defense to record outs or commit overthrows.” That’s how he interprets the case play 8.3.2D that I posted earlier that actually tells us that the ball remains live as long as there are runners moving.

After a second of deliberation I think I will go with the case play and Mr. Childress.

And a question for you, Mr. maven. Some time in the recent past we had a thread that asked if runners could score out of order—I can’t find it at the moment. As I recall we established that the FED rule about runners passing, rule 8-4-2m, states the following runner is out when he passes an unobstructed preceding runner. So why couldn’t the B/R in the OP pass the obstructed R1 and score?

[SH0102]

37 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Good golly, Mr. SH0102, you and Mr. maven sure have created a dilemma for me. Who should I believe?--you two or Carl Childress who said in his 2016 BRD (section 370, p. 246) that under FED rules, “The ball becomes dead (on obstruction) only after runners have gone as far as possible which allows the defense to record outs or commit overthrows.” That’s how he interprets the case play 8.3.2D that I posted earlier that actually tells us that the ball remains live as long as there are runners moving.

After a second of deliberation I think I will go with the case play and Mr. Childress.

And a question for you, Mr. maven. Some time in the recent past we had a thread that asked if runners could score out of order—I can’t find it at the moment. As I recall we established that the FED rule about runners passing, rule 8-4-2m, states the following runner is out when he passes an unobstructed preceding runner. So why couldn’t the B/R in the OP pass the obstructed R1 and score?

I understand your wording, but when the obstructed runner has been thrown out, that is as far as he is going.  

[Senor Azul]

Mr. HokieUmp, I am not sure why you and Mr. Jimurray are arguing about an OBR ruling in the High School forum in a thread that clearly states its question concerns FED rules. However, let me clarify the answer to your question. It is not that the obstructed runner is out or safe on the call that determines when the umpire calls time. The umpire is to call time at the end of all possible play, i.e., when all runners have stopped. Here’s what the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual says (pp. 110-111) about calling time after a type 2 obstruction—

…The ball is not dead, however, and the umpire shall allow play to continue until all play has ceased and no further action is possible. At that moment, he shall call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, that in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

And…"This decision is made on the principle that the umpire, in making awards on this type of obstruction, shall allow play to continue until no further action is possible and then shall make awards"…

[Senor Azul]

Now, Mr. agdz59, I can get to your tangential question. The answer can be found in FED rule 8-4-2g and its following subsection 1. As you describe it the fielder muffed the ball about 10 feet from third base and did not gain control until he was essentially even with the bag. So he had to move and now it is the runner who should get the protection from the fielder. I think the rule of thumb is a step and reach for the fielder to maintain the protection of being in the act of fielding. Here’s what Carl Childress says in his 2016 BRD (section 345, p. 227) and then the relevant rule:

“When a fielder muffs a batted ball and he must move to re-field it, if contact occurs in the base path, the umpire will protect the runner unless the official declares deliberate interference.”

2019 NFHS rule 8-4 ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:

g. intentionally interferes with a throw or a thrown ball; or he hinders a fielder on his initial attempt to field a batted ball. A fielder is not protected, except from intentional contact if he misplays the ball and has to move from his original location;

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. HokieUmp, I am not sure why you and Mr. Jimurray are arguing about an OBR ruling in the High School forum in a thread that clearly states its question concerns FED rules. However, let me clarify the answer to your question. It is not that the obstructed runner is out or safe on the call that determines when the umpire calls time. The umpire is to call time at the end of all possible play, i.e., when all runners have stopped. Here’s what the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual says (pp. 110-111) about calling time after a type 2 obstruction—

…The ball is not dead, however, and the umpire shall allow play to continue until all play has ceased and no further action is possible. At that moment, he shall call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, that in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

And…"This decision is made on the principle that the umpire, in making awards on this type of obstruction, shall allow play to continue until no further action is possible and then shall make awards"…

We are not arguing, just trying to get clarity on the OBR ruling which might actually have a bearing how FED rules although usually not. It appears "(See Note 1 that follows)" is not in your current MiLBUM but would you do me the favor of a continued reading of that paragraph in your MiLBUM to confirm that there is no reference to a note 1 that kills the play if the type 2 obstructed runner is tagged out because it did/does exist in my 2017 MLBUM. The partial wording is "However if such a play on a previously obstructed runner being tagged out before reaching the base to which the runner would have been awarded because of the obstruction results in the runner being actuallt tagged, the umpire shall in that case call time the moment the runner is tagged out."

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Jimurray, of course the Note you refer to is in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual. You know as well as I do that the MiLBUM and the MLBUM use essentially the same text for most of its entries. I checked the 2007 and the 2015 MLBUM and the text has remained nearly identical for at least the past 14 years.

It now comes down to how you interpret Note 1. The very first sentence of Note 1 refers to a runner (“if a runner is obstructed”). I think it is obvious that it is talking about when a single runner is obstructed and then later thrown out. Of course time will be called then because nothing else can possibly happen.

If one continues to read Note 2 he will see the following sentence—“However, the ultimate decision in placing the runners shall not be made until all play has ceased and shall be based on the principle that the obstructed runner will be entitled to the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred.”

That makes three separate references in that section on Type 2 obstruction where we are told that the umpire is to allow play to continue until all runners have stopped. In addition to the already posted OBR and FED rulings, I can provide the NCAA ruling as well. In his 2020 College Baseball Study Guide, author George Demetriou states on page 113 that “the umpire shall allow play to continue until all action has ceased and then call time…”

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Jimurray, of course the Note you refer to is in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual. You know as well as I do that the MiLBUM and the MLBUM use essentially the same text for most of its entries. I checked the 2007 and the 2015 MLBUM and the text has remained nearly identical for at least the past 14 years.

It now comes down to how you interpret Note 1. The very first sentence of Note 1 refers to a runner (“if a runner is obstructed”). I think it is obvious that it is talking about when a single runner is obstructed and then later thrown out. Of course time will be called then because nothing else can possibly happen.

If one continues to read Note 2 he will see the following sentence—“However, the ultimate decision in placing the runners shall not be made until all play has ceased and shall be based on the principle that the obstructed runner will be entitled to the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred.”

That makes three separate references in that section on Type 2 obstruction where we are told that the umpire is to allow play to continue until all runners have stopped. In addition to the already posted OBR and FED rulings, I can provide the NCAA ruling as well. In his 2020 College Baseball Study Guide, author George Demetriou states on page 113 that “the umpire shall allow play to continue until all action has ceased and then call time…”

So why have Note 1 if of course time will be called. Does your MiLBUM refer to Note 1 as an exception to the “all play has ceased…..” phrase in the type 2 verbiage. George is probably right about NCAA but he has benn wrong before about OBR. 

[maven]

I never said to enforce like OBR. For FED, the ball is dead at the end of playing action. I said that initially, at the beginning of my post. Seems pretty clear there.

12 hours ago, maven said:

If we specify FED rules, there's no debate about when the ball's dead. It's dead at the end of playing action.

So, no, I'm not calling time when R1 is apparently retired at 3B. That's not the FED mechanic for OBS. The defense is entitled in that code to make a play on the BR.

Yes, the passing rule includes the word 'unobstructed', and the penalty is an out. It does not follow that the BR passing an obstructed R1 should be allowed to score. It follows only that he's not out for passing. And even that might be debatable, as the OBS in the OP happened at 2B and the passing at 3B. So the OBS did not cause the passing.

I'm not calling the BR out for passing, and I'm not calling R1 out for abandonment. Both of those potential infractions were the result of R1 being provisionally called out at 3B, which I'm nullifying for the OBS. So I'd nullify them as a result as well.

We will still need to place the BR during the award for the OBS on R1, and I see no baseball provision, practice, or consideration of fair play that supports advancing him beyond R1. Runners run the bases in order, which is why there's a passing rule. I'm putting R1 at 3B to nullify the act of OBS, and the BR at 2B.

In addressing these situations where there's a violation followed by weirdness, I recommend thinking hard about the penalty and not going overboard in favor of either the offending team or the offended team. The defense thought they had an out, and the offense thought they had a run. My ruling takes both of those away, and gives the offense 2 runners in scoring position. That penalty is defensible in terms of nullifying the OBS; for me, awarding 2 runs to the offense is going overboard and applying a too-stiff penalty for the OBS at 2B.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, maven said:

I never said to enforce like OBR. For FED, the ball is dead at the end of playing action. I said that initially, at the beginning of my post. Seems pretty clear there.

So, no, I'm not calling time when R1 is apparently retired at 3B. That's not the FED mechanic for OBS. The defense is entitled in that code to make a play on the BR.

Yes, the passing rule includes the word 'unobstructed', and the penalty is an out. It does not follow that the BR passing an obstructed R1 should be allowed to score. It follows only that he's not out for passing. And even that might be debatable, as the OBS in the OP happened at 2B and the passing at 3B. So the OBS did not cause the passing.

I'm not calling the BR out for passing, and I'm not calling R1 out for abandonment. Both of those potential infractions were the result of R1 being provisionally called out at 3B, which I'm nullifying for the OBS. So I'd nullify them as a result as well.

We will still need to place the BR during the award for the OBS on R1, and I see no baseball provision, practice, or consideration of fair play that supports advancing him beyond R1. Runners run the bases in order, which is why there's a passing rule. I'm putting R1 at 3B to nullify the act of OBS, and the BR at 2B.

In addressing these situations where there's a violation followed by weirdness, I recommend thinking hard about the penalty and not going overboard in favor of either the offending team or the offended team. The defense thought they had an out, and the offense thought they had a run. My ruling takes both of those away, and gives the offense 2 runners in scoring position. That penalty is defensible in terms of nullifying the OBS; for me, awarding 2 runs to the offense is going overboard and applying a too-stiff penalty for the OBS at 2B.

If R1 had ignored the out call, and advanced to home on the overthrow (properly touching all bases), would you let both runs stand, or still apply the same remedy?

 

If you are the umpire that ruled OBS at second base AND you are the umpire making the call at third base...are you indicating "out" in real time, or some other mechanic?...knowing action hasn't ended yet...

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Jimurray, of course the Note you refer to is in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual. You know as well as I do that the MiLBUM and the MLBUM use essentially the same text for most of its entries. I checked the 2007 and the 2015 MLBUM and the text has remained nearly identical for at least the past 14 years.

It now comes down to how you interpret Note 1. The very first sentence of Note 1 refers to a runner (“if a runner is obstructed”). I think it is obvious that it is talking about when a single runner is obstructed and then later thrown out. Of course time will be called then because nothing else can possibly happen.

If one continues to read Note 2 he will see the following sentence—“However, the ultimate decision in placing the runners shall not be made until all play has ceased and shall be based on the principle that the obstructed runner will be entitled to the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred.”

That makes three separate references in that section on Type 2 obstruction where we are told that the umpire is to allow play to continue until all runners have stopped. In addition to the already posted OBR and FED rulings, I can provide the NCAA ruling as well. In his 2020 College Baseball Study Guide, author George Demetriou states on page 113 that “the umpire shall allow play to continue until all action has ceased and then call time…”

NCAA puts the verbiage of the OBR note in their rule:

8-3-e-2, note: “
Note: If a runner is obstructed under this second section of the obstruction rule, play shall continue until its completion, even if it results in a play being made on the previously obstructed runner. If the play results in that runner being tagged out before he reaches the base he would have been awarded, the umpire shall call “Time” at the moment the runner is tagged out. The umpire shall then impose such penalties that would nullify the obstruction.” 

I don’t know if George interprets that as you do but it seems to be an unnecessary note for a sit with only 1 runner. If they are tagged out all play has ceased. 

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If R1 had ignored the out call, and advanced to home on the overthrow (properly touching all bases), would you let both runs stand, or still apply the same remedy?

 

If you are the umpire that ruled OBS at second base AND you are the umpire making the call at third base...are you indicating "out" in real time, or some other mechanic?...knowing action hasn't ended yet...

I think this is why OBR/NCAA call time when the previously obstructed runner is tagged out at a base he was protected to even though there are other runners that could be played played on, acknowledging @Senor Azul's differing opinion that you wait for all playing action to end. CCS shows a recent OBS where time was called when the previously obstructed runner was tagged and we still had runner/s advancing on the bases. They also reference the WS OBS and that Lentz correction Demuth wishes that he had used the correct mechanic of calling time on the tag out instead of signaling safe: Kulpa-Lentz's Obstruction Shades of Joyce-DeMuth | Close Call Sports & Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

But CCS is also remiss in quoting the rule wording of "no further action is possible" when there still was a runner. 

[humanbackstop19]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:00 AM, beerguy55 said:

If R1 had ignored the out call, and advanced to home on the overthrow (properly touching all bases), would you let both runs stand, or still apply the same remedy?

 

If you are the umpire that ruled OBS at second base AND you are the umpire making the call at third base...are you indicating "out" in real time, or some other mechanic?...knowing action hasn't ended yet...

Mechanically, you should not be making both calls.  If you're the BU, you have the ball in the air into "the gap", as the OP states, for catch/no catch and probably grabbed a pretty obvious OBS call.  But, you shouldn't have the play into 3rd base as the PU should be rotating over to take the play in the cutout.  That's a problem here.  Even 4-man, somebody is calling the OBS and an other umpire is making the call at third base on the clean hit to the gap.  

 

Furthermore, mechanically on the play at third, you have 3 choices - 1) OUT, 2) SAFE, or 3) TIME!  Regardless, a call has to be made on the play bearing in mind OBS has already been called.  

[Tborze]

PU should/would be rotating on this and obviously didn’t see the OBS or the call of OBS. 
We can’t penalize R1, he was called “out”.  Because we can correct the situation which put him at a disadvantage, I think we have to put him back @ 3rd.  

Bringing a runner back out is moot, just make it an award.