Missed base on early leave

[aaluck]

Okay. I got a call from a younger official the other day and not sure I know this answer. NFHS rules...12-13 year olds.

R2, line drive to first. R2 leaves at the crack of the bat, F3 catches the line drive, notices R2 breaking to 3rd. F3 airmails it over the head of F5 and it runs down the fence. R2 rounds 3rd where his coach yells for him to go back to 2nd. He returns to 2nd but missed 3rd on his way back--not sure anyone saw that miss of 3rd other than umpire.  After the ball was retrieved, R2 is back standing on 2nd.

Coach appeals him leaving 2nd early--while he is standing back on 2nd.  Is this the correct appeal since he is back on 2nd?  Should the appeal be he missed 3rd?

This young official didn't want to hint that he missed 3rd on the way back. Can you call him out 'on your own' for missing 3rd, despite him being back on 2nd at the time of the appeal?

[noumpere]

6 minutes ago, aaluck said:

Okay. I got a call from a younger official the other day and not sure I know this answer. NFHS rules...12-13 year olds.

R2, line drive to first. R2 leaves at the crack of the bat, F3 catches the line drive, notices R2 breaking to 3rd. F3 airmails it over the head of F5 and it runs down the fence. R2 rounds 3rd where his coach yells for him to go back to 2nd. He returns to 2nd but missed 3rd on his way back--not sure anyone saw that miss of 3rd other than umpire.  After the ball was retrieved, R2 is back standing on 2nd.

Coach appeals him leaving 2nd early--while he is standing back on 2nd.  Is this the correct appeal since he is back on 2nd?  Should the appeal be he missed 3rd?

This young official didn't want to hint that he missed 3rd on the way back. Can you call him out 'on your own' for missing 3rd, despite him being back on 2nd at the time of the appeal?

You can't rule on an appeal that's not made (except, I think, in one of the Carolinas).

The appeal was for leaving early.  Rule on that.  (Safe, since R2 is now back on second).

Let the defense appeal again for missing third, if they want.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

Okay. I got a call from a younger official the other day and not sure I know this answer. NFHS rules...12-13 year olds.

R2, line drive to first. R2 leaves at the crack of the bat, F3 catches the line drive, notices R2 breaking to 3rd. F3 airmails it over the head of F5 and it runs down the fence. R2 rounds 3rd where his coach yells for him to go back to 2nd. He returns to 2nd but missed 3rd on his way back--not sure anyone saw that miss of 3rd other than umpire.  After the ball was retrieved, R2 is back standing on 2nd.

Coach appeals him leaving 2nd early--while he is standing back on 2nd.  Is this the correct appeal since he is back on 2nd?  Should the appeal be he missed 3rd?

This young official didn't want to hint that he missed 3rd on the way back. Can you call him out 'on your own' for missing 3rd, despite him being back on 2nd at the time of the appeal?

An appeal can be made on the infracting runner or at the base where the infraction occurred. An appeal must be unmistakable, and in this case it was, because they said they were appealing him leaving early. That is not an appeal for missing 3B. They can subsequently tag the runner or 3B to appeal that infraction.

[beerguy55]

21 minutes ago, Matt said:

An appeal must be unmistakable, and in this case it was, because they said they were appealing him leaving early. That is not an appeal for missing 3B. They can subsequently tag the runner or 3B to appeal that infraction.

What's interesting, for me, is that if the coach didn't say anything, and they just threw over and tagged the runner (not second base) I would assume they're appealing the missed bag...after all, why would they appeal leaving early to the base where the runner is actually standing?   I would consider it an unmistakable appeal.  Now, with the coach verbally declaring an appeal for leaving the base early while the guy is actually standing on the base he left early, I'm questioning the ability to assume anything.

I'm reminded of a scene in The Rainmaker...Matt Damon objects for "leading the witness" and Danny Glover says "overruled....as to leading"...and he misses the hint.   

 

[SH0102]

You should always know what they are appealing.  A simple “coach/catcher/etc, what are you appealing”?

[aaluck]

11 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

You should always know what they are appealing.  A simple “coach/catcher/etc, what are you appealing”?

 

2 hours ago, aaluck said:

Coach appeals him leaving 2nd early

We do know.  See, I believe it is inappropriate for me as an umpire to ever say "coach/catcher/etc, what are you appealing”?  It is his job to clearly state his appeal and my job to rule on it.  If I have to walk him through what he is appealing I'm not an umpire, I'm his advocate and that's not what they pay me to do.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

 

We do know.  See, I believe it is inappropriate for me as an umpire to ever say "coach/catcher/etc, what are you appealing”?  It is his job to clearly state his appeal and my job to rule on it.  If I have to walk him through what he is appealing I'm not an umpire, I'm his advocate and that's not what they pay me to do.

"What are you appealing?" (or, perhaps, "what are you trying to do?") is NOT coaching.  It's seeking information / clarification.  Now, "are you appealing that the runner missed third?" is coaching.

[SH0102]

1 hour ago, aaluck said:

 

We do know.  See, I believe it is inappropriate for me as an umpire to ever say "coach/catcher/etc, what are you appealing”?  It is his job to clearly state his appeal and my job to rule on it.  If I have to walk him through what he is appealing I'm not an umpire, I'm his advocate and that's not what they pay me to do.

Disagree…if they throw over or tag runner, and nothing is indicated or said, I’m assuming they are just trying to put him out. I’ll signal safe as if they are just tagging him.  If they are appealing and don’t say what, I’m asking for information.

My original response was about the msg saying they would ASSUME they are appealing that he didn’t retouch third, to which I said, you should always know what they are appealing.

[beerguy55]

36 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

My original response was about the msg saying they would ASSUME they are appealing that he didn’t retouch third, to which I said, you should always know what they are appealing.

If it makes you feel better, I will re-word my statement - I would DEDUCE that they are appealing the miss at third.

If the runner is obviously standing on the base and has been there for several seconds the last thing I would conclude is they're "just trying to put him out"...except maybe at 8U...nor would I (normally - weird chain of events in this OP aside) conclude they were appealing that he left the base he's standing on early, or that he missed the base he's standing on.

Usually (not always) someone is saying "appeal" just before or as they're doing the act, especially at the end of a play...they may not be saying "what" but it's usually pretty clear, in the moment, with or without the verbal declaration, that they're appealing SOMETHING.

 

This is far different than an active play where the runner's off base and the defense is trying to beat the runner back to the base...and in that scenario, on a caught ball, it would usually be very apparent the defense is appealing "left early" rather than just trying to get the runner out...especially if the defense is clearly attempting to touch the base and not the runner.   And in that scenario, if they decided to touch the runner a second or two after I'd want them to explicitly say they're appealing the miss at third.

[Biscuit]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If it makes you feel better, I will re-word my statement - I would DEDUCE that they are appealing the miss at third.

If the runner is obviously standing on the base and has been there for several seconds the last thing I would conclude is they're "just trying to put him out"...except maybe at 8U...nor would I (normally - weird chain of events in this OP aside) conclude they were appealing that he left the base he's standing on early, or that he missed the base he's standing on.

Usually (not always) someone is saying "appeal" just before or as they're doing the act, especially at the end of a play...they may not be saying "what" but it's usually pretty clear, in the moment, with or without the verbal declaration, that they're appealing SOMETHING.

 

This is far different than an active play where the runner's off base and the defense is trying to beat the runner back to the base...and in that scenario, on a caught ball, it would usually be very apparent the defense is appealing "left early" rather than just trying to get the runner out...especially if the defense is clearly attempting to touch the base and not the runner.   And in that scenario, if they decided to touch the runner a second or two after I'd want them to explicitly say they're appealing the miss at third.

But the standard is that the action must be an unmistakable act of appeal (in this case, of the runner missing 3rd). Yes, especially if I have deduced that the coach or player is especially baseball savvy, I may assume that they are appealing the miss of 3rd, but it's still definitely possible that it is something else, especially since 90+% of the time they would tag 3rd instead of the runner for this appeal. In addition, without there being a verbal appeal, I probably would not see this as an appeal at all! How often do you see the ball thrown into second (even if maybe it'd be quicker to throw it elsewhere) and then F4 or F6 tag the runner for no reason? 

Regardless, what is the harm in asking what they are appealing? If they're appealing the thing you think they are, it doesn't matter whether you ask or not. If they're appealing something you DON'T think they're appealing, you've just saved yourself embarrassment, or potentially tipping off (or calling) an appeal that never happened. That's a LOT worse than taking the 2 seconds it takes to ask what they're appealing. I really see no risk with asking a clarifying question. In fact, I think it's your duty to do so.

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If it makes you feel better, I will re-word my statement - I would DEDUCE that they are appealing the miss at third.

 

99 and 44/100 percent of appeals are made by tagging the base missed / left too soon.  In fact, I would guess (and it's just that) that most players and coaches don't even know you can tag a runner to make an appeal.

 

So, I wouldn't deduce that they were appealing the miss at third -- I'd deduce that they were trying *something* but I wouldn't know what -- so I'd ask.

[maven]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

99 and 44/100 percent

Damn, even your joke references are old.

[MadMax]

20 hours ago, aaluck said:

See, I believe it is inappropriate for me as an umpire to ever say "coach/catcher/etc, what are you appealing”?

We, as umpires, can’t be this obtuse in our interactions with participants. When we’re judging and ruling on plays, we want the best, most beneficial, clearest view of it we can get, right? It’s called clarity. If we don’t have clarity on certain plays, we do (at times) have other tools available to us to improve or gain clarity (possible pulled foot at 1B, for example). How is asking for clarity – for specifically what the participant (coach) is appealing – a detriment, or “coaching” them? 

Let me give a perfect example – granted, it was Fed rules, so the convenience of a verbal Dead Ball appeal means we have to speak anyway, but the concept is applicable to Live Ball Appeals, too: 

R2, R3, 0 out. 2-man crew. DTHC is in 3B dugout. Fly ball to centerfield. Caught. Both runners tag up and advance., with R3 scoring. Throw comes infield area, but up the line towards 3B, well off target and late. DTHC yells out, “Touch the base! He left early, he left early!” Of course, the infielder does what any naive teenager does… he tags R2 (now R3) standing on 3B. It’s a Live ball, and that’s a “play” upon the runner, so I signal “Safe”. 
- DTHC: “What?!” 
- BU (Me): “Time!… Coach, High School Rules, we can do a dead ball appeal. What are you appealing?” 
- DTHC: “Oh! He left early!” 
- BU: “Which guy?” 
- DTHC: “That guy (points at OT dugout).” 
- BU: “Ah, that’s his (points at PU partner) call.” 
- PU: Safe signal. 
- DTHC: “Guy from 2nd, that guy.”

- BU: “That’s mine” Safe signal. 
- DTHC: “Guy from 1st!” 
- BU: “… Who?”

- DTHC: “Ha!” 

And despite losing by a run rule for the 5th time that season, that HS coach actually said post-game we were the best, most even-keeled crew he’d had that season. 

Clarity. Strive to gain or convey clarity, and all the participants are more receptive. 

[BLWizzRanger]

Sorry, the weekend cant come fast enough.