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When is a runner 'past' a base


Thunderheads

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From a stupid Facebook post on one of the umpire pages/groups.   Loosely based on the Blue Jays game last week where Verdugo missed first base, but F3 didn't touch first base either.  Ruled safe because Verdugo came back and corrected his error while no one appealed or touched first.  Gil reviews it here: 

So ....

the issue with the Facebook post is this:  This person is asking at what point does the runner acquire first base.  He used the photo below as the example (not exactly the photo, I just took it from the video, but it's very close to the same).   The Facebook person (Call him "Mark") is saying that in the photo, ... IF the first baseman had the ball (he doesn't) ...but IF he did have the ball, that Verdugo would be out because he hasn't put 2 feet on the ground behind the bag. (???)   I know that "feet on the ground" do matter for when you're advancing or retouching, but ...at first?    I say Verdugo has acquired first base in the photo below as he's past it, yes?   What am I missing?
image.png

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IIRC, the universal interpretation of 'acquiring' a base without touching it is being past it, and that being 'past' it means the runner's entire body is beyond the base, and that being 'beyond' the base is relative to the previous base. Phew.

That said, camera angles distort, so it's not possible to tell from the posted photo whether that runner is past that base. If his foot is still above the base, as it appears to me, then he would not be past it.

Note that in 2-umpire mechanics, close plays at first base will be difficult to judge. With 4 umpires and U2 coming in or already inside, he'll have a better look (if he's looking).

Also, Facebook sucks, and stupid arguments that turn on interpretations to which most people lack access are a waste of time. JMHO

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5 minutes ago, maven said:

IIRC, the universal interpretation of 'acquiring' a base without touching it is being past it, and that being 'past' it means the runner's entire body is beyond the base, and that being 'beyond' the base is relative to the previous base. Phew.

That said, camera angles distort, so it's not possible to tell from the posted photo whether that runner is past that base. If his foot is still above the base, as it appears to me, then he would not be past it.

Note that in 2-umpire mechanics, close plays at first base will be difficult to judge. With 4 umpires and U2 coming in or already inside, he'll have a better look (if he's looking).

Also, Facebook sucks, and stupid discussions that turn on interpretations to which most people lack access are a waste of time. JMHO

Ok, great.  That's a good start.   So, let's say the Verdugo's back leg hasn't 'passed' first yet and it is indeed hanging over the bag.  In that sense, he would not be past that base yet? (confirming).    That said ... does this "2 feet on the ground" thing apply at first?

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38 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

does this "2 feet on the ground" thing apply at first?

No. That's nothing to do with being past a base (first or any other). The runner might be airborne when he attains "past the base" status.

The only time 2 feet on the ground comes into play that I can think of is a foul ball hitting the batter, and even that doesn't extend to FED.

You might check the MSU rule book, though.

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49 minutes ago, maven said:

Also, Facebook sucks, and stupid arguments that turn on interpretations to which most people lack access are a waste of time. JMHO

preach.gif

Don't get me wrong, I spend an inordinate amount of time on Facebook. For seeing what friends and family are up to, it's great. But for separating signal from noise in something like this, I laugh in your direction. I saw the FB post he's referencing, and I do like seeing what people are talking about there - I see this (and related groups) as "look, but don't touch". This site is 100x better if you really want to learn about umpiring, rather than hearing uninformed opinions.

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19 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

preach.gif

Don't get me wrong, I spend an inordinate amount of time on Facebook. For seeing what friends and family are up to, it's great. But for separating signal from noise in something like this, I laugh in your direction. I saw the FB post he's referencing, and I do like seeing what people are talking about there - I see this (and related groups) as "look, but don't touch". This site is 100x better if you really want to learn about umpiring, rather than hearing uninformed opinions.

LOL!

Kyle, ...thanks for that, and trust me, I GET IT.   MOST of the time I steer clear, but sometimes I'll chime in and I guess I haven't learned my lesson yet :rolleyes:     Anyhow, ...so you saw this? Your thoughts?

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27 minutes ago, maven said:

No. That's nothing to do with being past a base (first or any other). The runner might be airborne when he attains "past the base" status.

The only time 2 feet on the ground comes into play that I can think of is a foul ball hitting the batter, and even that doesn't extend to FED.

You might check the MSU rule book, though.

This is what I'm referring to, and AFAIK, ... this rule doesn't apply to a play where someone isn't advancing.

image.png

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8 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

 Anyhow, ...so you saw this? Your thoughts?

I'm with @maven. In my opinion (and if some interp comes out elsewhere that disagrees with me, I reserve the right to change my mind), the runner hasn't passed the base until all of his body has passed the base. If the runner could still put a toe down, he hasn't passed the base yet. If the ball was in the glove at the moment of the photo, I would say "out".

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5 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

I'm with @maven. In my opinion (and if some interp comes out elsewhere that disagrees with me, I reserve the right to change my mind), the runner hasn't passed the base until all of his body has passed the base. If the runner could still put a toe down, he hasn't passed the base yet. If the ball was in the glove at the moment of the photo, I would say "out".

fair enough.  But ... would you have 'seen' it necessarily?  And this "2 feet on the ground" thingy they're all screaming about ....

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3 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

fair enough.  But ... would you have 'seen' it necessarily?

Probably not, to be honest. Those are tough calls in real-time (right up there with tags on the hip while the runner is sliding head-first into a base), but whatever I called I would be able to explain to whichever coach I pissed off.

7 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

And this "2 feet on the ground" thingy they're all screaming about ....

The reason I don't comment on FB. Straight from the MSU rulebook.

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15 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

Probably not, to be honest. Those are tough calls in real-time (right up there with tags on the hip while the runner is sliding head-first into a base), but whatever I called I would be able to explain to whichever coach I pissed off.

The reason I don't comment on FB. Straight from the MSU rulebook.

I give up .... MSU?

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

This is what I'm referring to, and AFAIK, ... this rule doesn't apply to a play where someone isn't advancing.

image.png

That interp applies to 2B and 3B as shown, bases that need to be retouched if you have passed it and need to return due to a caught fly. For 1B we consider the runner past if no foot can touch the base, in the air or otherwise. If a toe is the only thing over the back edge of the base without touching and the ball gets there we have an out. If that toe has cleared the back edge of the base and the ball gets there we have a missed base and currently we signal safe although it used to be no signal.

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10 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That interp applies to 2B and 3B as shown, bases that need to be retouched if you have passed it and need to return due to a caught fly. For 1B we consider the runner past if no foot can touch the base, in the air or otherwise. If a toe is the only thing over the back edge of the base without touching and the ball gets there we have an out. If that toe has cleared the back edge of the base and the ball gets there we have a missed base and currently we signal safe although it used to be no signal.

OK!  So, ... 2 things: 1) Can you cite that for me?  And, 2) so this 2 feet on the ground crap has nothing to do with first base? (which is what I was trying to argue with these FB idiots!)

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35 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Your screenshot is of the MLBUM interp regarding retouching bases. Your answer is in the actual rule. 1B never has to be retouched to return home.

my answer as in the cite I asked you about?  If so, I didn't see it in 5.06.

 

36 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

For 1B we consider the runner past if no foot can touch the base, in the air or otherwise. If a toe is the only thing over the back edge of the base without touching and the ball gets there we have an out

@Jimurray ...the quote above is what I was asking for "in writing" somewhere?

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1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

my answer as in the cite I asked you about?  If so, I didn't see it in 5.06.

 

@Jimurray ...the quote above is what I was asking for "in writing" somewhere?

The interp for 5.06(b)1 only has diagrams for 2B and 3B because you can't be forced to return from 1B to HP. Thus the "if forced to return" statement in the rule. 

I don't remember any written cite for passing 1B but I probably heard it at an Evans Clinic. But common sense would say that if there was a possibility of the runner touching 1B on the way by he hasn't passed it yet. Once that possibility ceases, even if both feet were in the air, he has passed 1B. Ask the facebook crowd where the diagram is for 1B in the interp.

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1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

The interp for 5.06(b)1 only has diagrams for 2B and 3B because you can't be forced to return from 1B to HP. Thus the "if forced to return" statement in the rule. 

I don't remember any written cite for passing 1B but I probably heard it at an Evans Clinic. But common sense would say that if there was a possibility of the runner touching 1B on the way by he hasn't passed it yet. Once that possibility ceases, even if both feet were in the air, he has passed 1B. Ask the facebook crowd where the diagram is for 1B in the interp.

I see! OK, thanks!  And your second comment is true, and is stated in the MiLB manual "passes with both feet" ...(not necessarily ON the ground) ;) 

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Guys, we did discuss this question a long time ago in a thread titled Failure to touch 1B in August 2014 (Rules forum currently on page 26). The original poster eventually asked a friend of his at PBUC and here is what he said—

"Good news...the OBR doesn't clearly define, so hard to say you are completely wrong. However, I think a more practical ruling would be if the runner touches the ground beside or beyond the base, he would be considered as to have touched or passed the bag."

I think the takeaway from this is that foot placement is the key to the call. If the B/R’s foot is on the ground next to or beyond the bag prior to the F3 catching the throw, the B/R has “acquired” the base. The front edge of first base is 90 feet from the tip of home plate. If the B/R’s foot touches down and breaks the plane of that front edge before the ball arrives he has acquired the base.

And here is the closest case play I could find back then—now it can be found in the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual on page 83-- 

Batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop. On what appears to be the batter-runner's last stride before touching first base, his foot hits the ground just short of the base, failing to touch it. However, the batter-runner's body is over the top of first before the first baseman gloves the throw. The batter-runner overruns the base, the umpire makes no signal and the first baseman steps on the base and appeals to the umpire that the batter-runner failed to touch first: the umpire has handled the play in the correct manner. The batter-runner never reached first safely and it is the responsibility of the defensive team to recognize that he missed the base. The batter-runner is out on the appeal.

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Oh, Mr. Thunderheads, don’t let anybody tell you that the diagram you posted doesn’t have any application to first base—it definitely does! In fact, that diagram is used in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual and the example they use in showing how to use it is…

A runner breaks from first base and then completely overruns first base with both feet going into foul territory beyond the base in returning. If the runner wants to again attempt to advance second base, they must retouch first base prior to advancing.

In addition, I am almost certain there was a play discussed recently about whether a returning runner who had crossed the foul line (the back side of first base) had been passed by the B/R who had overrun first and gone up the foul line.

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47 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Oh, Mr. Thunderheads, don’t let anybody tell you that the diagram you posted doesn’t have any application to first base—it definitely does! In fact, that diagram is used in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual and the example they use in showing how to use it is…

A runner breaks from first base and then completely overruns first base with both feet going into foul territory beyond the base in returning. If the runner wants to again attempt to advance second base, they must retouch first base prior to advancing.

In addition, I am almost certain there was a play discussed recently about whether a returning runner who had crossed the foul line (the back side of first base) had been passed by the B/R who had overrun first and gone up the foul line.

Wow, that is a new one for me. All those MLB and other code overruns that went to 2B on an overthrow were appealable if both feet were on the foul side of the line during the overrun? 

EDIT: Nevermind, you and they are talking about an overrun coming back to the base. That makes sense to require both feet in foul territory but I think we called it that way prior to any interp.

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13 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Oh, Mr. Thunderheads, don’t let anybody tell you that the diagram you posted doesn’t have any application to first base—it definitely does! In fact, that diagram is used in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual and the example they use in showing how to use it is…

A runner breaks from first base and then completely overruns first base with both feet going into foul territory beyond the base in returning. If the runner wants to again attempt to advance second base, they must retouch first base prior to advancing.

In addition, I am almost certain there was a play discussed recently about whether a returning runner who had crossed the foul line (the back side of first base) had been passed by the B/R who had overrun first and gone up the foul line.

It does .... ONLY when returning/advancing/retouching

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