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Batting out of order


Guest Jwil

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Guest Jwil

We are using MLB rules.  The other teamed turned in their line-up card and did not place their number 3 hitter on the card.  I am managing the other team.  We notice it right away.  We don’t say anything.  He strikes out his first at bat so we didn’t call batting out of order.  His 2nd at bat he flies out.  In the last inning he comes up and hits a he.  We call batting out of order.  Is he out?

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Thats on the plate umpire, who should have caught the correctable error at the plate meeting. 

From Wendelstedt (2015, pg. 33). “Failing to correct these errors (correctable errors) before the start of the game does not prohibit the team in error from making the proper correction after the game has begun. A team cannot be trapped by an obvious, correctable error that should have been caught by the plate umpire at the plate meeting. The position that players take on defense or in the batting lineup does not lock them into a particular batting position later in the game if an obvious error is missed at the plate meeting.”

[4.03 comment]. 

From what Im understanding, fix the problem with the batting order and play on. No BOO. 

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3 hours ago, Guest Jwil said:

We are using MLB rules.  The other teamed turned in their line-up card and did not place their number 3 hitter on the card.  I am managing the other team.  We notice it right away.  We don’t say anything.  He strikes out his first at bat so we didn’t call batting out of order.  His 2nd at bat he flies out.  In the last inning he comes up and hits a he.  We call batting out of order.  Is he out?

When you say the number 3 hitter wasn't on the card, what do you mean? That they listed 1, 2, and 4 with their names, but left 3 blank?

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Well done, BCBrad. This rule interpretation is not just in the Wendelstedt manual—it is also found in the 2016 BRD (section 444, p. 295) and in the actual rule—

The umpire shall call attention to obvious errors in the lineup: (1) The lineup does not include all nine players; (2) the pitcher is omitted when there is no DH listed; (3) two players with the same last name but no identifying initial.

2021 OBR Rule 4.03 Comment: Obvious errors in the batting order, which are noticed by the umpire-in-chief before he calls “Play” for the start of the game, should be called to the attention of the manager or captain of the team in error, so the correction can be made before the game starts. For example, if a manager has inadvertently listed only eight men in the batting order, or has listed two players with the same last name but without an identifying initial and the errors are noticed by the umpire before he calls “play,” he shall cause such error or errors to be corrected before he calls “play” to start the game. Teams should not be “trapped” later by some mistake that obviously was inadvertent and which can be corrected before the game starts…

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4 hours ago, Matt said:

When you say the number 3 hitter wasn't on the card, what do you mean? That they listed 1, 2, and 4 with their names, but left 3 blank?

Matt, I agree that it read goofy, but I THINK he meant that the #3 hitter was not listed on the actual roster.

So it said something like: John, Mike, Adam…but on the list of roster names, Adam was nowhere to be found.

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1 hour ago, SH0102 said:

Matt, I agree that it read goofy, but I THINK he meant that the #3 hitter was not listed on the actual roster.

So it said something like: John, Mike, Adam…but on the list of roster names, Adam was nowhere to be found.

If it's a roster issue, then it either goes to the league to decide, or we need to know the league-specific rules if the umpire is supposed to rule on this.

 

Kudos to the OP, though, for knowing the right time to point this out.

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This is from the OP in another thread:

We have an extended batting order where everyone bats they had 13 guys at the game but only 12 listed in their lineup card. No way the ump would catch that.  They batted all 13 just left a guy off the lineup card who happened to be their 3 hitter

 

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I believe he said they played MLB rules, so OBR, and in OBR, there is no unannounced substitute like HS, the players must be on the roster.

I was doing an MLB Draft League game and coach wanted to put someone in that wasn’t on lineup card.  That league was about opportunities and playing time so he asked the other coach if he was okay with it and all was fine, but technically in OBR, if they aren’t on roster of lineup card, they can not participate

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1 hour ago, SH0102 said:

I believe he said they played MLB rules, so OBR, and in OBR, there is no unannounced substitute like HS, the players must be on the roster.

 

Yes, there is. It's covered in 5.10(j)

And a sub does not need to be listed on the batting order.  4.03(c )

Don't confuse batting order and roster. They are two distinctly different things. You can be on the team roster but not in the batting order. You are only in the batting order if you are currently in the game.

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58 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I believe he said they played MLB rules, so OBR, and in OBR, there is no unannounced substitute like HS, the players must be on the roster.

I was doing an MLB Draft League game and coach wanted to put someone in that wasn’t on lineup card.  That league was about opportunities and playing time so he asked the other coach if he was okay with it and all was fine, but technically in OBR, if they aren’t on roster of lineup card, they can not participate

Really?

 

4.03(c)As a courtesy, potential substitute players should also be listed, but the failure to list a potential substitute player shall not make such potential substitute player ineligible to enter the game.

And then under 5.10

( j) (3.08(a)) If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when:

(1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher’s plate;

(2) If a batter, he takes his place in the batter’s box;

(3) If a fielder, he reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, and play commences;

(4) If a runner, he takes the place of the runner he has replaced.

 

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17 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Yes, there is. It's covered in 5.10(j)

And a sub does not need to be listed on the batting order.  4.03(c )

Don't confuse batting order and roster. They are two distinctly different things. You can be on the team roster but not in the batting order. You are only in the batting order if you are currently in the game.

I believe MLB wants the batting order and all eligible players listed on the card given to the PU and opposing manager. Other leagues using OBR may or may not have that requirement and it is not an OBR rule.

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1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

Yes, there is. It's covered in 5.10(j)

And a sub does not need to be listed on the batting order.  4.03(c )

Don't confuse batting order and roster. They are two distinctly different things. You can be on the team roster but not in the batting order. You are only in the batting order if you are currently in the game.

I didnt confuse them, if anything I mis-typed....easy way to put this, their name has to be on the lineup card...either in the actual batting lineup or listed as a substitute.  You can't bring "Johnny" out of thin air and insert them into the game, is all I was saying

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4 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

I didnt confuse them, if anything I mis-typed....easy way to put this, their name has to be on the lineup card...either in the actual batting lineup or listed as a substitute.  You can't bring "Johnny" out of thin air and insert them into the game, is all I was saying

No they don't, and yes you can....4.03(c)...fielding positions AND substitutes are considered a courtesy.  As well, 4.01a and b specifically say "batting order"...not lineup, roster, bench, available players, etc.

They may need to be on a roster, or otherwise eligible as far as the league/tourney is concerned (insurance/age/registration/etc), but as stated in OBR (unless the league/tourney has a specific bi-law) the subs list is a "courtesy".

 

7 hours ago, Tborze said:

Possibly. Then the OP appealed the wrong batter.?

If it's an unannounced sub, I presume player four would have to come out of the game??  Batter three has batted (HR), defensive coach is appealing before batter four receives a pitch...it's ruled as a substitution of 3 for 4??   And Player 5 is next up.

 

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No reason to appeal when they're out. You appeal when they get on base. Previous activity is irrelevant. I think I just read this discussion on your facebook group page and the real problem is too many players not knowing the rules, and wanting the game to be simultaneously pure rec and played by the rules. You can't have it both ways. From what I read in that thread there, the team just chose to appeal when they should have. Batter's out. The other team should proofread their lineup better next time.

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1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

No they don't, and yes you can....4.03(c)...fielding positions AND substitutes are considered a courtesy.  As well, 4.01a and b specifically say "batting order"...not lineup, roster, bench, available players, etc.

They may need to be on a roster, or otherwise eligible as far as the league/tourney is concerned (insurance/age/registration/etc), but as stated in OBR (unless the league/tourney has a specific bi-law) the subs list is a "courtesy".

 

If it's an unannounced sub, I presume player four would have to come out of the game??  Batter three has batted (HR), defensive coach is appealing before batter four receives a pitch...it's ruled as a substitution of 3 for 4??   And Player 5 is next up.

 

So the appeal should have happened with the next batter, correct?  

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9 hours ago, Tborze said:

This is from the OP in another thread:

We have an extended batting order where everyone bats they had 13 guys at the game but only 12 listed in their lineup card. No way the ump would catch that.  They batted all 13 just left a guy off the lineup card who happened to be their 3 hitter

 

Since this is a "continuous bating order", then we can't just use "pure" OBR to solve this.  League rules should specify what happens if a player at the game is not listed in the batting order (and what to do if someone arrives late, or leaves early, or ...)

Failing that, it's 9.01c (or whatever the number is) -- the umpire gets to decide "what's right."  In this instance, I'd let the home run stand, especially since the player had already batted twice in this spot.

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HANG ON ... house rules going wrong?!  What?!  I am SHOCKED!

It absolutely would NOT be on the umpire to catch that there were 12 guys instead of 13.  If it was a traditional 9-player order and they had 8, sure.  Batting everybody?  How do I know who everybody is?

"... and coach, you are batting 12?"  "Yup," as he stares at the hot mom in the low cut sun dress.

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