LL Base Path

[LRZ]

Interesting base path play in the WA/MT LL game last night, no-called by the PU. The MT coach came out and talked with the PU, but didn't look totally convinced by the explanation. Although LL uses the phrase "baseline," instead of "base path," they seem to be equivalent--it's established by the runner as a straight line between him/her and the base towards which he/she is moving, at the time of the tag attempt. The play at 3:25 of this video: 

 

[ArchAngel72]

That juke at the end of his run. Yeah its borderline to me. I will say had he been 6 inches more on the grass Bang he's out but there to me he was within the 3 feet one way or the other, just basing it off from what I saw on the video.

Gotta recall that the line is like 3 inches from the grass right there at the opening to home plate. It may be causing an illusion making it look like he went further than he did.

 

Anyway I like the no call on this one myself

 

EDIT

 

 

HOWEVER HE IS OUT ON A HEAD 1st SLIDE!

 

He should have been banged out on that

 

 

[ousafe]

Marginal but I'm okay with the base path no-call there because the tag attempt was so late.  I'd be okay if he did call it too.

But the runner advanced head-first. I have him out on a head first slide (LL prohibits head first slides). He was not diving back to a base he'd already passed/attained.

[LRZ]

I did not know that about sliding head first. Is that for all levels of LL, including the 11-12 y/os in this tournament?

[ArchAngel72]

1 minute ago, LRZ said:

I did not know that about sliding head first. Is that for all levels of LL, including the 11-12 y/os in this tournament?

Yep any head first slide is auto out in LL(8-12)  Except diving BACK to a base you have attained.  Cannot happen at home so. BOOM OUT  clap hands brush off plate and move on..

 

[ousafe]

6 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Yep any head first slide is auto out in LL(8-12)  Except diving BACK to a base you have attained.  Cannot happen at home so. BOOM OUT  clap hands brush off plate and move on..

 

Still a live ball, right? Call the out (maybe verbalize "Headfirst! He's out!") and move on to the next play (e.g. BR), if any.

[ArchAngel72]

8 minutes ago, ousafe said:

Still a live ball, right? Call the out (maybe verbalize "Headfirst! He's out!") and move on to the next play (e.g. BR), if any.

7.08(a)(4)

(Little League Majors and below only) the runner slides head first while advancing.

 

Hmm I believe the ball is still live as it does not say ball is dead. so yeah I never thought about other players being out there on the base path in my head when it happened so yeah.. 

 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2019 LL Make the Right Call (the casebook of LL Baseball):

RULE 7.08(a)(4)[MAJORS & BELOW] SITUATION:  A runner on third base breaks for home on a batted ball. The ball is thrown to the catcher and a play is imminent at the plate. In an attempt to avoid the tag, the runner slides head first into the plate.

RULING:  The umpire shall declare the runner out for the head-first slide, the ball remains live and the defense may record additional outs.

[Velho]

Great recognition @ArchAngel72 on the head first dive. I missed it with all the action. "OUT!" every time. No reason to kill the play, imo.

Borderline on out of the base path (at best).

[Rich Ives]

It was not a head first slide.  Kinda sideways past the plate then a reach to the plate.  His head did not lead the way. Not a head first slide.

[Senor Azul]

Here is the only help provided by the LL RIM--

2020 LL RIM rule 7.08(a)(4)

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

➔ Stumbling, tripping or crawling do not constitute a “Head First slide.”

➔ This rule does not apply when a runner is returning to a base, only when advancing to a base. Any runner who does a headfirst slide is out at the moment the umpire sees the runner go into the headfirst slide. The ball remains live and in play. Other runners may advance at their own risk and plays may be attempted on any other runners. If the runner who is called out for sliding headfirst has been forced to advance this will be a force out and no runs will score if this is the third out of the inning. In all other instances the headfirst slide will be a time play when there are two outs.

[ArchAngel72]

9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

It was not a head first slide.  Kinda sideways past the plate then a reach to the plate.  His head did not lead the way. Not a head first slide.

He dove at the plate with his hands and head leading the way…. How in the heck do you not see that as headfirst

[Rich Ives]

38 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

He dove at the plate with his hands and head leading the way…. How in the heck do you not see that as headfirst

Because that's an incorrect observation.

[Tborze]

22 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Yep any head first slide is auto out in LL(8-12)  Except diving BACK to a base you have attained.  Cannot happen at home so. BOOM OUT  clap hands brush off plate and move on..

 

Is the bolded above a rule?

 

[kylejt]

It's head first, for sure. But the questions is, was it actually a slide? Was there skidding along the dirt involved? I think that's been a criteria for this ruling for some LL "experts". 

I'm not so sure the runner actually, fully passed the plate, for determining "going back" to the base. Didn't look like it to me. 

[Rich Ives]

41 minutes ago, kylejt said:

It's head first, for sure. But the questions is, was it actually a slide? Was there skidding along the dirt involved? I think that's been a criteria for this ruling for some LL "experts". 

I'm not so sure the runner actually, fully passed the plate, for determining "going back" to the base. Didn't look like it to me. 

Meets the "trip" and "crawl" Azul quoted from the RIM. It is NOT a head first SLIDE.

 

[kylejt]

I'll buy that. 

 

[ArchAngel72]

56 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Meets the "trip" and "crawl" Azul quoted from the RIM. It is NOT a head first SLIDE.

 

He did not trip or fall he lunged forward for the plate. That IS a head 1st slide and its not back to the plate he never achieved it thus he cannot go back to it.

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, kylejt said:

It's head first, for sure. But the questions is, was it actually a slide? Was there skidding along the dirt involved? I think that's been a criteria for this ruling for some LL "experts". 

I'm not so sure the runner actually, fully passed the plate, for determining "going back" to the base. Didn't look like it to me. 

I agree with this   A head first dive at a base is the same as a slide its the same premise he went head and hands 1st AT the plate  He’s not going back to it as he never attained it.

 

[ArchAngel72]

I’ve watched it and watched the replay several, several times he side steps the catcher and then lunges hands/head 1st at the plate. That’s no slip or fall. His legs propel him Superman style at the plate.  And NO he is not going back to it.  He should have been out.

[kylejt]

But was there actually a slide along the ground? I think that's what the Q is for many. 

Either way you see it, it's close, and interesting. 

 

[SJA]

The only way to resolve this issue / question is to contact Williamsport via email and directly and specifically name the game, the play, and the call as to why that call was or was not correct. You’ll probably hear back from Cathy Lusk or Tom Rollins. Post the response when you get it. 😊

[kylejt]

Oh, I'm sure they'll be right on it if they thought the call was wrong.

 

 

 

 

Not. 

[SJA]

Ha! Yeah, LL is real good at “sidestepping” rather than going “head first” to get it right at times 🤣🤪

[Vegas_Ump]

First, the "base path" is determined the instant the fielder has the ball and is starting to play on the runner.  Where is the runner?  Where the the base/plate he is trying to achieve?  Draw a line between those two points.  The runner has a 3 foot margin either side of THAT line.  Do you think the runner's fake out move occurred within that 3 foot area?  I do.  Safe.

But....

If a runner is advancing and the velocity vector of his progress is coming from his head and not his feet, he's out for a HFS.

We can judge and argue that!  Let the games continue!

Mike

Las Vegas