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Preventative Umpiring?


Jimurray

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Texas-Oakland B3 after 4 runs, Reliever Urtegy (sic), comes in and after 1 batter has R2 and R3. Video goes off on some other stuff but when we come back it looks like  the pitcher had started a sideways windup and Gucione calls time and comes out and confirms that he is going to windup and then signals the windup signal to his umps and both dugouts. What is the windup signal you might ask. His was similar to a HR and I would use the same if nobody could hear me saying "He's going to windup". Not exactly MLBUM protocol but this game was on the way to a blowout. But What if you took a possible balk scoring a run from Joe Maddon in a 1 run ball game. BTW two sideways Rangers pitchers back to back. 

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I went and looked at this in the MLB archive. Herget (correcting the sic) went to a windup motion from the stretch. To be explicit: he came to a set, on the rubber with both feet pointed toward third base. His left foot then stepped back towards first base to initiate his pitching motion, his left foot then came towards third and he then delivered the pitch. This was not pitching from the windup as I'd define it (or ever heard it defined) where your start with both heels on the rubber and toes pointed at home plate.

I saw a pitcher from the same starting position do the same movements and get called for a balk the other night (I can't find the video) though it seemed his was a twitch more than intentional.

Hoping someone can explain how this all makes sense.

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With runners on base do they still have to declare if a hybrid stance is a windup or set, according to 5.07 (a)2 where ever that rule falls now., ccs talked about this somewhere.. Maybe the declaration was not given to start with and they had to clarify.

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1 hour ago, dumbdumb said:

With runners on base do they still have to declare if a hybrid stance is a windup or set, according to 5.07 (a)2 where ever that rule falls now., ccs talked about this somewhere.. Maybe the declaration was not given to start with and they had to clarify.

The hybrid pitcher does not have to notify unless his pivot foot is parallel to the rubber, what looks like a set position. The notification is required in the comment to 5.07(a)2 but there is no penalty described for not notifying. It would seem to be a balk if you are assumed set and do not comply with the set rule, that extra step being not in compliance. When this change came out the assumption was a balk if no notification. But maybe it's a "do not do that" and Guccione's time call was appropriate.

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8 hours ago, Velho said:

I went and looked at this in the MLB archive. Herget (correcting the sic) went to a windup motion from the stretch. To be explicit: he came to a set, on the rubber with both feet pointed toward third base. His left foot then stepped back towards first base to initiate his pitching motion, his left foot then came towards third and he then delivered the pitch. This was not pitching from the windup as I'd define it (or ever heard it defined) where your start with both heels on the rubber and toes pointed at home plate.

I saw a pitcher from the same starting position do the same movements and get called for a balk the other night (I can't find the video) though it seemed his was a twitch more than intentional.

Hoping someone can explain how this all makes sense.

Little League calls it winding up from the stretch and makes it legal in Majors and below. LL has not matched the changes in OBR and their windup rule is more restrictive than current OBR so the RIM says it would be balk above majors. An OBR  pitcher only has to have his pivot foot in contact with the rubber and the other foot free. The angle of the pivot foot to the rubber only matters if it is parallel. There are "square" stances, shoulders in line with 1B/3B, hybrid stances, body and free foot oriented in any degree off that line, and sideways stances, with the pivot foot parallel to the rubber. A windup pitcher doesn't even have to windup. Stroman and others occasionally just rear back and throw, sometimes getting called for a QP and sometimes not.

BTW what date/teams/inning was the balk?

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13 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The hybrid pitcher does not have to notify unless his pivot foot is parallel to the rubber, what looks like a set position. The notification is required in the comment to 5.07(a)2 but there is no penalty described for not notifying. It would seem to be a balk if you are assumed set and do not comply with the set rule, that extra step being not in compliance. When this change came out the assumption was a balk if no notification. But maybe it's a "do not do that" and Guccione's time call was appropriate.

Ok, learn something new every day.

Some questions:

1) is this legal under NFHS?

2) Back to MLB, can the the pitcher first stretch, come to the resting position with pivot foot parallel to the rubber, and then do this?

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3 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

A windup pitcher doesn't even have to windup. Stroman and others occasionally just rear back and throw, sometimes getting called for a QP and sometimes not.

BTW what date/teams/inning was the balk?

Agreed, many pitchers no longer go through a traditional windup any more.

Like I said, I can't find the balk I referred to. I tried to find a list of all balks as I seem to recall it was Blue Jay but I can't find such a listing. Understanding the MLB rule now, the pitcher have first first been in the stretch, then free leg twitched to get called for the balk.

Add on: reading through rule 5.07(a), with its recursive and spaghetti logic, makes my brain hurt. My 15yr old daughters circle of friends goings on or my workplace dynamics make more sense.

https://content.mlb.com/documents/2/2/4/305750224/2019_Official_Baseball_Rules_FINAL_.pdf

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11 minutes ago, Velho said:

1) is this legal under NFHS?

No. The hybrid stance is illegal in FED, and should be addressed in warmups if seen. If F1 doesn't do it until he's pitching to a batter, it's an illegal pitch/balk when he takes a rocker step in an otherwise legal set position.

Whether and how to enforce it will vary by state. My state wants it enforced strictly. This is NOT the path of least resistance.

11 minutes ago, Velho said:

2) Back to MLB, can the the pitcher first stretch, come to the resting position with pivot foot parallel to the rubber, and then do this?

It depends: if all that can be processed as "taking the rubber," and not the start of the pitch, then legal. If he's committed to pitch, then technically it would be a start/stop balk, with runners on. Pretty sure it's ignored with no runners; I don't know what pro guidance is for calling the balk.

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14 minutes ago, Velho said:

Ok, learn something new every day.

Some questions:

1) is this legal under NFHS?

2) Back to MLB, can the the pitcher first stretch, come to the resting position with pivot foot parallel to the rubber, and then do this?

answered already

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13 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Little League calls it winding up from the stretch and makes it legal in Majors and below.

Missed this (sorry for multiple posts). LL majors and below don't have balks. Pitchers can start their motion from any postion and don't have to come to a stop. The pause mid-motion or quick pitch can be ruled an illegal pitch.

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45 minutes ago, Velho said:

Missed this (sorry for multiple posts). LL majors and below don't have balks. Pitchers can start their motion from any postion and don't have to come to a stop. The pause mid-motion or quick pitch can be ruled an illegal pitch.

 

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Ok, learn something new every day.

Some questions:

1) is this legal under NFHS?

2) Back to MLB, can the the pitcher first stretch, come to the resting position with pivot foot parallel to the rubber, and then do this?

Regarding #2, if a sideways pitcher stretched to a stop with a free foot reposition we would probably assume the set and a rocker step after that would be illegal and penalized with a balk. If a sideways pitcher stretched to a stop with no free foot reposition he would be legally doing the same thing as a square pitcher bring his hands together prior to starting his motion. From what I've seen with sideways upper level OBR pitchers in my neck of the woods and also observation of MiLB/MLB, they all address the rubber in a manner that allows you to discern what their delivery is going to be and I've only seen LL pitchers stretch to a stop with free foot reposition and then rocker step into a windup. I believe LL allows this in Majors and below.

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6 minutes ago, Velho said:

Here is one that appears similar that was called a balk. 

Aug 7, 2020. T2, 2out. Here is the box score https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/KCA/KCA202008070.shtml

Go to 3:25 mark if the link doesn't automagically hop there.

 

 

 

If he had notified that he would windup, rare/stupid with R1,  there would be no balk. That is a legal movement to bring hands together in the windup without any other motion associated with the pitch. Then he starts his motion. Turn the rubber 90 degrees and pretend he's pitching from a square windup to 3B. Legal. But that does verify that balks have been called for no notification and maybe Guccione let one pass.

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3 hours ago, maven said:
3 hours ago, Velho said:

1) is this legal under NFHS?

No. The hybrid stance is illegal in FED

Thanks @maven & @Richvee. I forgot to ask about NCAA. How is it treated there?

Sorry for multiple questions. I find this very interesting. This feels (to me) as very divergent between the levels of play.

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36 minutes ago, Velho said:

Thanks @maven & @Richvee. I forgot to ask about NCAA. How is it treated there?

Sorry for multiple questions. I find this very interesting. This feels (to me) as very divergent between the levels of play.

NCAA currently copies OBR. In the past they went from a common sense rule to a restrictive rule and finally to the OBR rule. 

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23 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

NCAA currently copies OBR. In the past they went from a common sense rule to a restrictive rule and finally to the OBR rule. 

Ack. Thanks.

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On 8/8/2021 at 11:26 AM, Jimurray said:

 

Regarding #2, if a sideways pitcher stretched to a stop with a free foot reposition we would probably assume the set and a rocker step after that would be illegal and penalized with a balk. If a sideways pitcher stretched to a stop with no free foot reposition he would be legally doing the same thing as a square pitcher bring his hands together prior to starting his motion. From what I've seen with sideways upper level OBR pitchers in my neck of the woods and also observation of MiLB/MLB, they all address the rubber in a manner that allows you to discern what their delivery is going to be and I've only seen LL pitchers stretch to a stop with free foot reposition and then rocker step into a windup. I believe LL allows this in Majors and below.

From field of dreams game. Sideways pitcher comes set when winding up with no runners and comes set with runners. An example of of how you can perceive most if not all sideways pitcher’s different address to the rubber. 

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