“Do not pitch signal”

[Guest John Holland]

When an MLB umpire gives the  “Do not pitch” signal”, does this cause an immediate dead ball situation”

Thnx for your feedback,

JH

[noumpere]

12 minutes ago, Guest John Holland said:

When an MLB umpire gives the  “Do not pitch” signal”, does this cause an immediate dead ball situation”

Thnx for your feedback,

JH

Yes

[Senor Azul]

To our guest, John Holland, according to the 2016 BRD (section 166, p. 126), at least one of the pro umpire schools frowns upon the usage of the do-not-pitch signal.

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  [The Wendelstedt school teaches that] the “Do not pitch” signal is not an appropriate mechanic. If the pitcher delivers a pitch when the batter is not appropriately ready, call an illegal pitch. (email to Childress, 7/13/12)

And the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 9.4, p. 152) seems to agree—

“Before the first pitch of an inning or following any dead situation, the plate umpire should be sure that the pitcher does not deliver the pitch before the batter is ready. It is acceptable for the umpire to put up his right hand up in front of his body at least head height to prevent the pitcher from delivering a pitch before the batter is set. This signal should only be used to indicate that the ball is still dead following the calling of time and never used to initiate the call of time. The plate umpire should always raise both hands above his head when initiating the call of time.”

So, technically, when an MLB umpire signals do not pitch it is supposed to be a continuation of the dead ball situation and not an immediate dead ball.

[MadMax]

18 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

So, technically, when an MLB umpire signals do not pitch it is supposed to be a continuation of the dead ball situation and not an immediate dead ball.

Here’s why this is important for us non-MLB umpires to understand the context. In a Major League Baseball game (and from what I understand, no other level) the ball is assumed Live as soon as the pitcher engages the rubber (with a/the baseball), regardless of whether or not the PU physically signaled “Play” (or Live). 

Could a pitcher legitimately pick off a Runner in this status? Yes. Equally, is a pitcher liable to be called for a Balk should he twitch, start/stop/start, or fumble the ball while in this status? Yes. 

Thus, the single hand up ✋ in a MLB context is to be read as the PU suspending the Live status (or, continuing the Dead status) despite the pitcher engaging the rubber with a/the ball. Following this, the ball becomes Live once the hand lowers and/or the PU points “Play” or “Go” to the pitcher. 

By the Manual’s own direction, if the ball is already Live, and the PU puts up a single hand ✋, it doesn’t make the ball Dead (casual single hand up while calling “Time” to change the ball, for example, notwithstanding); instead, an umpire should use the proper mechanic 🙌🏼 (or ✋🏼 🤚🏼) to signal “Time”. 

[Rich Ives]

13 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Here’s why this is important for us non-MLB umpires to understand the context. In a Major League Baseball game  the ball is assumed Live as soon as the pitcher engages the rubber (with a/the baseball), regardless of whether or not the PU physically signaled “Play” (or Live). 

Assumption is incorrect. 

[MadMax]

1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

Assumption is incorrect.

How incorrect? As in, not at all? Or, in games besides MLB games? 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

How incorrect? As in, not at all? Or, in games besides MLB games? 

The assumption that the ball becomes live in professional baseball when the pitcher takes the rubber with the ball was how it used to work back when Jaska and Roder were involved with MiLB/MLB. I don't know what the rulebook said back then but J/R had the ball becoming live when the pitcher took the rubber and no umpire was signaling time in their manual. Back in the 2000s it was noticeable that many MLB umps did not point the ball in play. Currently my observation is that it is rare now to not see a point.

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Here’s why this is important for us non-MLB umpires to understand the context. In a Major League Baseball game (and from what I understand, no other level) the ball is assumed Live as soon as the pitcher engages the rubber (with a/the baseball), regardless of whether or not the PU physically signaled “Play” (or Live). 

Nope In LL we do not have a live ball until I gesture towards the mound and say "PLAY"

 

Even on a foul ball for me its wait for batter and pitcher and catcher to be set "give count say play with gesture"  

If the pitcher starts his pitch prior to me saying play I am jumping out waving hands saying "No pitch No pitch"

Why, cause I don't want a pitch being tossed until I know all the 10U kids that need to be paying attention ARE.

 

*** correction I read that wrong..

 

I thought you were talking about non-MLB ups as to how the ball is assumed live.. disregard my post mostly LOL

 

[LRZ]

14 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Currently my observation is that it is rare now to not see a point.

I've thought just the opposite. MLB, no point; NCAA and HS, yes, point. But I haven't done a careful, close study, so I could be skewing the data.

[ousafe]

Fwiw, watching Wolcott working live, I got confused because he was not "pointing / calling PLAY" at the beginning of half-innings and after foul balls.

This thread is confirming what I was seeing.

[MadMax]

16 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Currently my observation is that it is rare now to not see a point.

Is there a way to quantify this? A percentage? A metric? (I’m not putting the burden of proof on you, Jim, but on MLB and its data-obsessed pundits). This may be an outgrowth of the younger/current generation of MiLB umpires entering MLB in greater numbers than any time since 1999-2000. 

At a MLBU Day Camp, a former MLB umpire-of-influence informed our group, specifically, that when a (MLB) pitcher engages the rubber, it is Live, and we (as BUs) need to be actively aware and observant, because “every pitcher will cheat; it’s just a matter of us (umpires) catching them.” As such, he instructed us (as BUs) to adopt a stance-of-purpose – ready stance in your IP, then go hands-on-knees when F1 engages; return upright if he  disengages (legally); return to hands-on-knees when he reengages. This aids your PU by giving him an additional visual cue that F1 is engaged. 

27 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Nope In LL we do not have a live ball until I gesture towards the mound and say "PLAY"

That’s why I said solely and specifically MLB games; I do not mean games that use MLB -rules… which of course, LL does. I think this is where @Rich Ives and I are in conflict… but I need clarification. 

Oh, when I’m doing any other plate job on any other level of baseball, you best believe I’m doing a visible point and audible “Play” to make the ball Live. Every time (at least I sure do try to). And I instruct / train / remind / direct any PUs I’m working with or mentoring to do likewise. However, when I do MLB spring training “games” or pitching/simulated games, I don’t bother. A $10M-per-year arm doesn’t need me to point or bark “play” at him to know when he’s Live and ready to pitch. 

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, LRZ said:

I've thought just the opposite. MLB, no point; NCAA and HS, yes, point. But I haven't done a careful, close study, so I could be skewing the data.

 

17 minutes ago, ousafe said:

Fwiw, watching Wolcott working live, I got confused because he was not "pointing / calling PLAY" at the beginning of half-innings and after foul balls.

This thread is confirming what I was seeing.

Watching Livensparger now, Mets-Miami, no point ever. While I'm seeing more points currently than in the 2000s or 2010s there are some still that do not point.

[ArchAngel72]

19 hours ago, MadMax said:

That’s why I said solely and specifically MLB games; I do not mean games that use MLB -rules… which of course, LL does. I think this is where @Rich Ives and I are in conflict… but I need clarification. 

Oh, when I’m doing any other plate job on any other level of baseball, you best believe I’m doing a visible point and audible “Play” to make the ball Live. Every time (at least I sure do try to). And I instruct / train / remind / direct any PUs I’m working with or mentoring to do likewise. However, when I do MLB spring training “games” or pitching/simulated games, I don’t bother. A $10M-per-year arm doesn’t need me to point or bark “play” at him to know when he’s Live and ready to pitch. 

Yeah After I posted I went back and re-read it and had realized what you had said about the MLB umps and level specifically, I had understood what was said as backwards and noted that after.  But one thing that catches me as odd.

 

If MLB level guys do not point and play, why does a manager NOT protest and say hey the ball was never live again so that HR that XYZ just smoked off my pitcher was a non pitch and should be struck from the records.. because it was a foul, thus a dead ball just before that but no one said "play"

/ponder

 

 

[MadMax]

29 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

If MLB level guys do not point and play, why does a manager NOT protest and say hey the ball was never live again… ?

/ponder

Hmmm… 

Maybe because in a MLB game, specifically… the ball is assumed / considered / treated as (take your pick of vernacular) Live when F1 engages the rubber with a/the ball? 

…

…

… hmmm… 

…

… nah, can’t be that. Max can’t possibly be right on this one, he didn’t use a single citation! 

[ArchAngel72]

8 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Hmmm… 

Maybe because in a MLB game, specifically… the ball is assumed / considered / treated as (take your pick of vernacular) Live when F1 engages the rubber with a/the ball? 

…

…

… hmmm… 

…

… nah, can’t be that. Max can’t possibly be right on this one, he didn’t use a single citation! 

Please Max I am not trying to argue with you I would like to see the rule on that assumption of toeing the rubber making it live again is all.

Or is that something at your level you guys are told "this is the way"

Again I am just a lowly LL umpire trying to "get it"

yours humbly ArchAngel

[MadMax]

4 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Please Max I am not trying to argue with you

Arch, my snarky comment wasn’t levied at you. 

To (Toe?) the point you raise, do we (collectively) really need to see that citation, though? To a man, all of us here on U-E will agree that the realms of baseball that we call, varied as they may be, are distinctly different than a Major League Baseball game. To wit, there are things that go on within a game, and situations that arise and need to be managed, that we will never experience ourselves; equally so, there are processes and protocols behind the scenes that we will never see unless disclosed by MLB itself. And as is the track record, we’ve been told “don’t hold your breath” if we’re waiting for an official decree, revelation, or citation. 

In this case, even if we discover, definitively, that the ball is Live in a MLB game (solely and specifically) when F1 engages, regardless of whether or not PU points/calls “Play”… should we adopt that into our applied practices, ie. the games we call? 

Absolutely not. 

By all means, we should consistently use a physical point (at least) and/or an audible “Play” to make the ball Live again. Circling back to the original question (been awhile since we were there, huh?!), merely putting a hand up to “do not pitch” does not cause a dead ball situation in a MLB game. Instead, as we (several of us) have answered, it simply extends it (as it already is).

[Senor Azul]

From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (chapter 2, p. 22):

The ball becomes live again once (5.12)…

(a)   every umpire discontinues his signaling of time, and

(b)   the pitcher has the ball in-contact with the pitching rubber.

The plate umpire recognizes time during warm-up pitches. When he is in position, preparing to rule on a pitch to a batter, he may point to the pitcher to emphasize his discontinuation of time, and this is called “putting the ball in play.” This point does not in itself create a live ball—nor is it required of the umpire—but is often useful, especially with runners on base.

 

The Preface to the book tells us that “items in italics are innovations unique or original to the Jaksa/Roder manual…In other cases they are interpretations of plays or rules that have not yet been specifically addressed by the Major or Minor Leagues…Bear in mind that the process for making new rules interpretations in the Major and Minor Leagues can be very involved; oftentimes many opinions must be considered. Be that as it may, the words and interpretations herein printed in italics are not to be considered those officially used on the fields of professional baseball.”

[beerguy55]

On 8/6/2021 at 10:03 AM, MadMax said:

To (Toe?) the point you raise, do we (collectively) really need to see that citation, though? To a man, all of us here on U-E will agree that the realms of baseball that we call, varied as they may be, are distinctly different than a Major League Baseball game. To wit, there are things that go on within a game, and situations that arise and need to be managed, that we will never experience ourselves; equally so, there are processes and protocols behind the scenes that we will never see unless disclosed by MLB itself. And as is the track record, we’ve been told “don’t hold your breath” if we’re waiting for an official decree, revelation, or citation. 

In this case, even if we discover, definitively, that the ball is Live in a MLB game (solely and specifically) when F1 engages, regardless of whether or not PU points/calls “Play”… should we adopt that into our applied practices, ie. the games we call? 

Absolutely not. 

Exactly...MLB needs to be treated as its own animal as it is unique, in so many respects - starting with the caliber of both the players and the umpires.

For me, the fact that the ball is made dead so much more often in MLB is an important factor...basically happens at the end of every play...and several other times each inning...you can easily have a dead ball occur 50 times more in a MLB game than in any amateur game...that drives the necessity to have a more seamless, and even implied, process to make the ball live.

Conversely, we need to discourage coaches, players, and newbie umpires to get into the habit of wanting/granting time with the same frequency, just because that's what they see on TV.   When home teams start supplying 100+ balls for each game, and amateur umpires start making $1000+/game, we can kill the play as often as we want.