Rundown

[SH0102]

NFHS rule set…

Had a rundown yesterday between 1st and 2nd, no one else was on, so I, as HPU, came down to first to help.

Runner, upon a throw towards second, planted to come back towards first, and in doing so, slipped and scrambled and ended up in the infield grass, near the edge of the dirt. 

DHC asked about out of the baseline and we both quoted the rule that the baseline is not established until a tag attempt and that him being in the grass by itself is not a violation bc it was not to avoid a tag.

So DHC asked “so the runner could run into the outfield and make us chase him?”

At what point does the rule interpretation want us to say a “play is being made on the runner”, bc that’s what the NFHS rule says, that the base path is established when a play is being made on them…but they are only out when they deviate 3 feet to avoid a tag.

So guess I’m wondering if runner gets hung up on pickoff attempt, could they really go run into right field if they do so before any tag attempt ?

It was a smart-aleck question that led to a “what if” question in my mind.  I know I’ve seen the lead off in right field (with 1st and 3rd) to draw a throw and force D to come into the OF to give R3 better chance to score, but that’s bc you do it before a play is made. 

[Replacematt]

36 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

NFHS rule set…

Had a rundown yesterday between 1st and 2nd, no one else was on, so I, as HPU, came down to first to help.

Runner, upon a throw towards second, planted to come back towards first, and in doing so, slipped and scrambled and ended up in the infield grass, near the edge of the dirt. 

DHC asked about out of the baseline and we both quoted the rule that the baseline is not established until a tag attempt and that him being in the grass by itself is not a violation bc it was not to avoid a tag.

So DHC asked “so the runner could run into the outfield and make us chase him?”

At what point does the rule interpretation want us to say a “play is being made on the runner”, bc that’s what the NFHS rule says, that the base path is established when a play is being made on them…but they are only out when they deviate 3 feet to avoid a tag.

So guess I’m wondering if runner gets hung up on pickoff attempt, could they really go run into right field if they do so before any tag attempt ?

It was a smart-aleck question that led to a “what if” question in my mind.  I know I’ve seen the lead off in right field (with 1st and 3rd) to draw a throw and force D to come into the OF to give R3 better chance to score, but that’s bc you do it before a play is made. 

You've answered your own question. The runner is not bound by any path until a tag attempt is initiated and only while it is in progress. 

[SH0102]

12 minutes ago, Matt said:

You've answered your own question. The runner is not bound by any path until a tag attempt is initiated and only while it is in progress. 

That’s what I thought, but I essentially told the coach “yes, he can run into the OF as long as it isn’t to avoid a tag”, but wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something when it says “deviate 3 fy from the base path…” but then says the “base path is determined when making a play” (doesn’t say making a tag attempt)

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, SH0102 said:

So guess I’m wondering if runner gets hung up on pickoff attempt, could they really go run into right field if they do so before any tag attempt ?

It was a smart-aleck question that led to a “what if” question in my mind.  I know I’ve seen the lead off in right field (with 1st and 3rd) to draw a throw and force D to come into the OF to give R3 better chance to score, but that’s bc you do it before a play is made. 

But once the defense then starts a tag attempt, the runner needs to run toward a base -- that will happen about .2 seconds after he starts to run to the outfield during a run-down.

 

"Coach, we're not going to discuss hypotheticals.  I've answered your question about this play, so let's get back to the game."

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress (section 454, p. 301):

Runner Establishes Base Path

FED:  When a play is being made on a runner, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. (8-4-2a-2)

Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  The “skunk in the outfield” is legal. A runner may lead off any way he likes toward the next base and is not guilty of an infraction unless he uses more than three feet on either side of his base path to avoid a tag. (Website 2000 #20; affirmed, website 2005 #16)

2000 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations

SITUATION 20: With R3 on third base, R1 takes a lead off of first base and positions himself at the grass behind first base down the right field line. F1 throws to F3 in an attempt to pick off R1. R1 runs down the right field foul line toward the outfield fence. RULING: While R1’s position is legal, he is declared out when he ran toward the outfield fence when a play was attempted. In running down the foul line, he was out of the baseline he had between his position at the time of the pick off and second base.(8-4-2a)

It would appear that a throw to retire a runner is sufficient to call it a play. Once a runner is in a rundown I would think that would be a play. After all, what is a rundown if it isn’t an attempt to retire a runner? I think a discussion as to what constitutes a play would be in order here.

[agdz59]

Yeah, "make a play" I would interpret to include when a defender with the ball pursues the runner as well. And, if that is correct, it would prevent the runner from hightailing it into the outfield.

[SH0102]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress (section 454, p. 301):

Runner Establishes Base Path

FED:  When a play is being made on a runner, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. (8-4-2a-2)

Official Interpretation: Hopkins:  The “skunk in the outfield” is legal. A runner may lead off any way he likes toward the next base and is not guilty of an infraction unless he uses more than three feet on either side of his base path to avoid a tag. (Website 2000 #20; affirmed, website 2005 #16)

2000 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations

SITUATION 20: With R3 on third base, R1 takes a lead off of first base and positions himself at the grass behind first base down the right field line. F1 throws to F3 in an attempt to pick off R1. R1 runs down the right field foul line toward the outfield fence. RULING: While R1’s position is legal, he is declared out when he ran toward the outfield fence when a play was attempted. In running down the foul line, he was out of the baseline he had between his position at the time of the pick off and second base.(8-4-2a)

It would appear that a throw to retire a runner is sufficient to call it a play. Once a runner is in a rundown I would think that would be a play. After all, what is a rundown if it isn’t an attempt to retire a runner? I think a discussion as to what constitutes a play would be in order here.

Thank you @senorazul

But the rule says they are out for being out of the base path by more than 3 feet when a tag attempt is made….so if they go to the OF, is that out for abandonment rather than out of base path?

[Rich Ives]

12 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Thank you @senorazul

But the rule says they are out for being out of the base path by more than 3 feet when a tag attempt is made….so if they go to the OF, is that out for abandonment rather than out of base path?

This is defined in the rules. The runner creates his own basepath.  In a rundown it is from the point where the runner is at the start of the tag attempt straight to the base he is attempting to reach.  Every time the runner reverses direction a new basepath is established. If the runner deviates from that path more than three feet perpendicularly the runner is out for that, not for abandonment. If there is no tag attempt the runner can run anywhere without penalty.

[SH0102]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

This is defined in the rules. The runner creates his own basepath.  In a rundown it is from the point where the runner is at the start of the tag attempt straight to the base he is attempting to reach.  Every time the runner reverses direction a new basepath is established. If the runner deviates from that path more than three feet perpendicularly the runner is out for that, not for abandonment. If there is no tag attempt the runner can run anywhere without penalty.

That is counter to what senor azul posted.  Kid running into RF is out even though no tag attempt bc of the play established by throwing over to try and get him 

[noumpere]

11 hours ago, SH0102 said:

That is counter to what senor azul posted.  Kid running into RF is out even though no tag attempt bc of the play established by throwing over to try and get him 

From the rule book,   and then MLBUM (an older version), and then JEA:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Senor Azul]

You know, it used to be that guys like yawetag and others of our current grumpy veterans thought that they had scored a major gotcha when they pointed out a post was made concerning a different rule set than what was asked about in the OP. In this instance the OP asked about the “NFHS rule set” and that was how I answered with a rules interpretation from the FED rules editor and a FED online case play. But, this time, I am glad that Mr. noumpere brought in all those really old OBR citations because I have a good current one.

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.41, p. 58):  When determining whether a base runner should be called out under Rule 5.09(b)(1), so long as the umpire determines that a play is being made on the runner and an attempt to tag is occurring (i.e., the fielder is moving to tag the runner), no physical tag attempt is required to call a runner out for leaving the basepath.

[Senor Azul]

Here is the NFHS rule under discussion (and alluded to by Mr. SH0102 in his OP)--

2019 NFHS rule 8 SECTION 4 RUNNER IS OUT

ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:

a.    runs more than three feet away from a direct line between bases to avoid being tagged or to hinder a fielder while the runner is advancing or returning to a base;

2. When a play is being made on a runner or batter-runner, he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is moving.

[noumpere]

38 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

You know, it used to be that guys like yawetag and others of our current grumpy veterans thought that they had scored a major gotcha

 

Nobody's trying to play "gotcha" -- sometimes interps or similar language form other codes can help.  That's all.

 

Thanks for the updated language -- it seems reasonably consistent to me and matches the OP -- when the runner slipped during the throw (or if had chosen that time to run toward the outfield), it was NOT out of the baseline.  Had he done so while a tag "play" was in process, it would be -- and that's what the OP told the coach.

[The Man in Blue]

Don’t ask what happens when the runner takes a lead in the outfield, F3 is not “holding on the bag”, and the pitcher throws to F3 for pickoff attempt  ...  🤪

[Velho]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Don’t ask what happens when the runner takes a lead in the outfield, F3 is not “holding on the bag”, and the pitcher throws to F3 for pickoff attempt  ...  🤪

Or if it goes to F9?!?  "Everyone knows a pickoff to F9 is a balk!"

[Rich Ives]

9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Don’t ask what happens when the runner takes a lead in the outfield, F3 is not “holding on the bag”, and the pitcher throws to F3 for pickoff attempt  ...  🤪

Balk. Has to throw to the base.