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Player Interference


Guest Cliff
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Guest Cliff

MLB:  Base runner is headed home.  Ball is thrown to the catcher and the gets there at the same time as the runner.  There is a collision at the plate.  The runner doesn't touch the plate and the catcher doesn't tag the runner and both are a little "woozy".  The next batter grabs the runner's jersey and lifts and pulls on the runner towards the plate.  The catcher gets a clear head and tags the runner out.  If the catcher hadn't of tag the runner out, would the run count or would the runner be out?

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I'm trying to understand the point of the question. I think we're supposed to treat the collision as legal, though most are not these days.

And I think the question is asking whether a teammate can physically assist a runner. Key elements are: runner misses touch, fielder misses tag, teammate helps runner touch. Legal?

The answer to that is yes. Coaches are prohibited from physically assisting runners, but teammates are not. Same ruling, all codes.

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1 hour ago, maven said:

I'm trying to understand the point of the question. I think we're supposed to treat the collision as legal, though most are not these days.

And I think the question is asking whether a teammate can physically assist a runner. Key elements are: runner misses touch, fielder misses tag, teammate helps runner touch. Legal?

The answer to that is yes. Coaches are prohibited from physically assisting runners, but teammates are not. Same ruling, all codes.

I’ve come to not question Mavens knowledge, but I have to admit, this one baffles me…

So in HS for example, high fiving a batter who just hit a HR before he reaches home is grounds for a team warning and ejection on subsequent offense, during a dead ball, but grabbing a teammate during live action and dragging him to the plate before he can be tagged is nothing?

Wow…

I’ll throw myself under the bus…I’d have gotten this wrong ten-fold and called INT

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Guest Guest Lurking
2 hours ago, maven said:

I'm trying to understand the point of the question. I think we're supposed to treat the collision as legal, though most are not these days.

I'm pretty sure the OP is referencing this collision in last night's Twins/Angles game. Runner slid feet first, but their heads collided during the tag, and the catcher dropped the ball. The on-deck batter is the one who assisted the runner after the collision.

 

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6 minutes ago, Guest Guest Lurking said:

I'm pretty sure the OP is referencing this collision in last night's Twins/Angles game. Runner slid feet first, but their heads collided during the tag, and the catcher dropped the ball. The on-deck batter is the one who assisted the runner after the collision.

 

What is the ump signaling here before the tag...it seems to me he's actually telling them that there was no tag and no touch...shouldn't he be doing/saying nothing?   Or is he potentially communicating something else...maybe about the collision being "nothing"?

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Guest Lurking

I'm pretty sure Cuzzi's signal was indicating the ball is on the ground, thus not out on the initial tag.

Other angles showed the ball coming out of the glove a second or two after the collision, but the catcher was sort of on top of it, so it wasn't easy to see from many places, including the live action camera angle.

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That's what I see: "Ball's on the ground! No tag!"

Then, a tag. "He's out!"

Cuzzi had to make a choice here, as the mechanic for no touch/no tag is to do nothing. But he probably judged that he needed to rule on the apparent tag that knocked the ball loose. Hence the initial "safe" signal, which was a ruling on the tag attempt, not on the runner touching HP.

Look for a long video from Gil.

Back to the OP: if R2 had touched before the tag, "Safe!"

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1 hour ago, SH0102 said:

So in HS for example, high fiving a batter who just hit a HR before he reaches home is grounds for a team warning and ejection on subsequent offense, during a dead ball...

I don't think that's correct, or at least it's misleading. IIRC, to the extent that there's anything illegal here, the case had more to do with players being illegally out of the dugout, not merely contacting (much less assisting) the runner.

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Huh ... MLB is lacking on that one.  As @maven stated, the on deck hitter's actions are not expressly forbidden.  5.09(b)(13), the only place I am finding actions by a "member of his team" (i.e., not a runner, not a coach) expressly states it is for interfering with a fielder's attempt on a thrown ball.

I cannot believe the intent is to allow assistance by non-game participants though.  I know we have our purists who believe "if it isn't written ..." (which, IMO, is obviously negated by the clause allowing umpires to rule on scenarios not covered in the book).  

I argued against using this one in another thread (because of the throw) ... but if you won't accept 8.01(c), I'm going to: 

6.01(a)(4) Any member or members of the offensive team stand or gather around any base to which a runner is advancing, to confuse, hinder or add to the difficulty of the fielders. Such runner shall be declared out for the interference of his teammate or teammates;

 

Side note: has anybody seen @Senor Azul lately?

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51 minutes ago, maven said:

That's what I see: "Ball's on the ground! No tag!"

Then, a tag. "He's out!"

Cuzzi had to make a choice here, as the mechanic for no touch/no tag is to do nothing. But he probably judged that he needed to rule on the apparent tag that knocked the ball loose. Hence the initial "safe" signal, which was a ruling on the tag attempt, not on the runner touching HP.

Look for a long video from Gil.

Back to the OP: if R2 had touched before the tag, "Safe!"

I think the on deck would be considered the same as a scored runner and any assistance by him would be called an out due to coach assist. I know they have called that in the past when a scored runner tried to assist a following runner. Whether that was seen or judged assistance in the heat of the moment I don't know. I think FED also only allows "viable" runners to assist and this would be an out if judged assistance.

Edited to add:

2013 SITUATION 11: On a base hit to the outfield, the runner from third base comes home but misses touching home plate. The on-deck batter physically stops him and shoves him back to the plate, where he then touches it. RULING: Physical assistance by a teammate is not allowed unless both players are viable runners. The assisted runner is out and his run does not count. (2-21-1c, 5-1-2f, 3-2-2)

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This question has been discussed several times before and as recently as this past May. In OBR only a viable runner can assist another runner. The NCAA definitely rules differently. From the 2016 BRD (section 328, p. 217):

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  No member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, can physically assist a runner in advancing or returning to a base. 

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.8, p. 100):

…A runner is allowed to assist another runner physically; however, all other members of the offensive team (e.g., base coaches, on-deck batter, a runner who had just scored or has been put out, a batter, etc.) are not allowed to assist…

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Yay!  I was worried about you @Senor Azul!

 

I think I finally reached an internal understanding on my issue with these interpretations.  I don't know why it was this one that helped me put the pieces together ... While I fully agree with the ruling Mr. Wendelstedt and Mr. Childress offer, I have trouble seeing it as an interpretation rather than an instruction.  Mr. Wendelstedt says "call 'em out" but provides no logic or guidance on how he arrives at that interpretation.  It does not help umpires interpret rules, it just directs them on an outcome.

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Given those interpretations and the play from last night. The on-deck batter clearly could not help, but a following runner could have before a member of the defense tagged the groggy runner.

What would make it interesting is watching the following runner pushing / dragging the preceding runner without passing him!

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15 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Given those interpretations and the play from last night. The on-deck batter clearly could not help, but a following runner could have before a member of the defense tagged the groggy runner.

What would make it interesting is watching the following runner pushing / dragging the preceding runner without passing him!

I'm actually not sure it would be possible for the following runner to pass him...once on the other side of home plate, I don't know if one can be "past" the other.   Where's the line of reference for the next destination...the dugout?   There's only a base path back to the plate, not to any other point beyond it.

 

The following runner would have to miss the plate...if he touched it the preceding runner wouldn't be able to correct the error...but I'm not sure how you would properly define "passed" - they're both in no man's land.

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38 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm actually not sure it would be possible for the following runner to pass him...once on the other side of home plate, I don't know if one can be "past" the other.   Where's the line of reference for the next destination...the dugout?   There's only a base path back to the plate, not to any other point beyond it.

 

The following runner would have to miss the plate...if he touched it the preceding runner wouldn't be able to correct the error...but I'm not sure how you would properly define "passed" - they're both in no man's land.

Their new base path would be from where they were to the next base/plate.  Should they have not collided but he slid past the catcher who  ( I'll make this up) dove at the sliding runner missed the tag but the ball squirted loose. If the runner gets up and starts to trot to the dugout then turns around realizing or some one tells him he missed the plate, His new base path is from there to the plate. How another runner scoring before him works, That I do not know.  

I'm thinking it would make it so the runner who slid past lost his chance to touch the plate and an appeal would call him out..  But thats another question

 

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