Jump to content
  • 0

Check swing appeal


Guest Daryl M

Question

Guest Daryl M

Can anyone explain why it is perfectly acceptable for a catcher to appeal a check swing to the 1st/3rd base umpire but a batter can’t?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Recommended Posts

  • 0
On 7/19/2021 at 7:54 PM, SH0102 said:

To add to my comment, 99% of non-umpires have little understanding of what constitutes a half-swing or an “offer”.

A study was done on mlb half-swings and found that upon appeal, 50% were called swings and 50% weren’t.  But sports science analyzed with technology the half-swings and found that 80% actually offered, meaning even MLB umps were missing out on 30% of the check swing strikes.

My point is, when a batter starts a swing, 80% of the time they actually offer.
 

 So next time you’re at a game; count the number of times the plate umpire says “yes he did” and how many times they say “ball” on their own.  
 

then add the number of appeals and keep track of how many times BU says “yes” and “no”

If they are getting less than 80% of those strikes, they are missing strikes 


Just to add to this enthralling parade of shrugs and emphatic points to the rule book ... 😉

If an umpire is calling 50% when the expected number is 80% ... he is missing 37.5% of the calls, not 30%.

 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 7/19/2021 at 5:54 PM, SH0102 said:

But sports science analyzed with technology the half-swings and found that 80% actually offered

(Not picking a fight, I swear. Just ask my wife she'll back me that I don't... do... that. Oh, never mind.)

How can technology judge "offering"? Do you have a cite?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
3 hours ago, Velho said:

(Not picking a fight, I swear. Just ask my wife she'll back me that I don't... do... that. Oh, never mind.)

How can technology judge "offering"? Do you have a cite?

No, was told that at an NCAA clinic

And perhaps it just means going back and looking at them in slow-mo, I’m not sure .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 7/26/2021 at 4:56 PM, Velho said:

(Not picking a fight, I swear. Just ask my wife she'll back me that I don't... do... that. Oh, never mind.)

How can technology judge "offering"? Do you have a cite?

The same way it calls a strike that bounces through the zone.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Guest Billy
On 7/20/2021 at 10:44 PM, Guest DarylM said:

So you are saying an umpire can always tell if a batter has gone too far, but can’t tell if he didn’t sometimes? Seems to me if he can’t tell if he went too far then he can’t always be certain he did. I understand the rule, just think it isn’t fair. 

 

On 7/21/2021 at 2:49 PM, Guest DarylM said:

What is unfair is the the defense can appeal but the offense can't, not that complicated. Umpires make mistakes on both sides so why give the defense a chance to appeal but not the offense?

Seriously. The question is why is this rule this way? All the comments about “it’s because that’s the way the rule is written.” Yeah no kidding. The question is why. And I have the same one. No one has addressed this on this thread. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
10 minutes ago, Guest Billy said:

 

Seriously. The question is why is this rule this way? All the comments about “it’s because that’s the way the rule is written.” Yeah no kidding. The question is why. And I have the same one. No one has addressed this on this thread. 

It was answered about 37 times, but I’ll got #38.

The premise is that an umpire at the plate primarily is watching the pitch, not the swing.  The base umpires job is to watch swings, did ball hit the dirt, hit the batter, was a foul ball caught by catcher or did it hit dirt, etc.

So when a plate umpire is unsure, bc they were focused on pitch, they ask for help.  When a PU calls a swing, they are wrong almost never bc it’s fairly obvious they went when they can determine a swing when that isn’t even their focus.

All my games as BU, I can not recall a single time that a PU said “yes he did” where I was like “damn, that was a bad call”.

It would be a colossal waste of time to let batters check on every called swing, maybe 1 in 1000 would be overturned 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

And if you want the rulebook version, you can not appeal judgment, but can appeal “missed” things.  Calling a strike is judgment, so is calling ball.  Calling swing “yes he did” is judgment. Missing that he swung bc focused on tracking pitch is not judgment , it’s missing something 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

A baseball game is a set number of innings based on what level they are playing and the rules for that level. Each team takes turns playing offense and defense every inning. (barring any rules that may prevent this. ie mercy rule, weather, etc. ) The rule says that only the defensive team can appeal a checked swing. Since each team is given the same number of opportunities to play defense, they have the same opportunities to appeal a checked swing. I fail to see how that is unfair. Is it unfair, that the team playing defense is not allowed to score runs, while playing defense?

Something I always taught my players (when I was coaching), is that the umpire is always right. Even when he's wrong. They are free to criticize the umpire(s) every game they play without any mistakes. So no swings and misses, no called strikes, no outs while on offense. While on defense, absolutely no errors and every pitch is a strike.

I would suggest that, if you feel the need to criticize umpires in writing, you may want to want to work on your punctuation. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

To our guests, Daryl M and Billy, you are right that no one has addressed your question about the rationale behind the check swing appeal rule. That’s because we are not privy to the discussions that take place in rules committee’s meetings--the reason for most rules is not common knowledge.

For the most part we do not hear about the reason for a rule change. In the recent past there have been rules that actually had a name attached to it such as the Buster Posey rule or the Chase Utley rule where we know what prompted the rule change.

I can tell you that the check swing appeal rule is relatively new—it entered the rule book as a case book comment in 1976. Prior to that no appeal on a check swing was allowed—the plate umpire’s decision was final. Then all the case book interpretations were incorporated into the rule book proper in 1978 where it became rule 9.02(c) Comment.

From the early 1900s to the early 1950s MLB used 2-man umpire crews--it wasn’t until 1952 that the MLB went to a 4-man crew for all regular season games. There was no rule that required the plate umpire to ask for help so he didn’t. The defense had no recourse if a home plate umpire’s vision was blocked or some other circumstance prevented him from gauging whether a batter swung at a pitch. I think this was the impetus for a change to the rule—it was perceived as a denial to the defense.

Of course, there were probably other factors involved as well.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
21 hours ago, Guest Billy said:

 

Seriously. The question is why is this rule this way? All the comments about “it’s because that’s the way the rule is written.” Yeah no kidding. The question is why. And I have the same one. No one has addressed this on this thread. 

It's been explained several times, including by myself.

The rule only allows for an appeal on a called ball, not a ruled swing, for very good reasons.

The plate umpire saw a swing.  That is their judgment, and that is their call.   We do not force umpires to go to help on any other judgment call in the game - safe/out, fair/foul, etc.   The ump can if they wish...and in those situations it's not to get a second opinion, it's to ask if the other umpire saw something the calling ump didn't (eg. was the foot off the base?  Was the ball on the ground?)   If the PU were to get help on a called swing, it would simply be a second opinion...and would be tantamount to allowing the offense to shop for different calls.

There are many many reasons a PU will not see a swing that actually happened...there are ZERO reasons an umpire saw a swing that didn't.  (provided he's not guessing...by practice, an umpire is not supposed to call a strike he didn't see)

 

So, consider this scenario.  PU calls a swing.  The batter "appeals".   The PU asks the BU "Did he go?"   The BU didn't see anything because he was blocked by a player...or the sun was in his eyes...or he blinked...or 1000 other possible reasons.   He doesn't know if the batter swung or not.  Does he say "yes", because the PU called strike?  (an umpire is not supposed to guess, nor are they supposed to call a swing they didn't see)...does he say "no, he didn't" because he didn't see a swing?  And does that overrule the plate umpire's call?   On what was obviously a swing to anyone who saw it?   Does he say "the ruling on the field stands?"

In the current setting, the BU's "safe" call is effectively "I also didn't see a swing"...that could be because he doesn't really think a swing happened...or it could mean he literally didn't see anything.  All bases covered.   It gets messy when the opposite occurs.   PU saw a swing...BU says "well, I didn't, so it's a ball?"  Is that really what you want?

Not to mention pace of game.

I've coached club ball for many years...I also played semi-pro ball.   I don't ever want to see a world where the offense can appeal a called swing.   And I'll jump off a bridge if it ever goes to replay review.  The other umpires are there to help an umpire with something he may not have seen...they are not there for second opinions just because you didn't like the first call. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...