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Check swing appeal


Guest Daryl M

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Guest Daryl M

Can anyone explain why it is perfectly acceptable for a catcher to appeal a check swing to the 1st/3rd base umpire but a batter can’t?

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No player can appeal a check swing. F2 can request that the plate umpire do so. I did a 1-umpire game once, and F2 asked me to appeal a check swing call. So I checked with the batter's 1st base c

Only the defense can appeal Batting Out of Turn (duh) Really weird, unfair rule one: On a third strike if the catcher drops the ball the batter can run and try to reach first base. But,

Wow...just wow.   In your world every umpire should go for help to all his partners to make sure every judgment call has a consensus. Umpires don't go to other umpires just to get a second opinio

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14 minutes ago, Guest Daryl M said:

Can anyone explain why it is perfectly acceptable for a catcher to appeal a check swing to the 1st/3rd base umpire but a batter can’t?

Because an appeal can only be made when a ball had been called.  Why would the batter want to appeal that?

I am assuming you are actually asking why can a batter not appeal when the plate umpire has declared “yes he did”, and the answer is that strikes can never be overturned , whether it’s a called strike or a declared swing.

Also, typically the HPU will not need help when it’s pretty obvious the batter swung.  Thus, maybe 1 in 1000 are actually non-swings, so batters appealing would be a giant waste of time 

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To add to my comment, 99% of non-umpires have little understanding of what constitutes a half-swing or an “offer”.

A study was done on mlb half-swings and found that upon appeal, 50% were called swings and 50% weren’t.  But sports science analyzed with technology the half-swings and found that 80% actually offered, meaning even MLB umps were missing out on 30% of the check swing strikes.

My point is, when a batter starts a swing, 80% of the time they actually offer.
 

 So next time you’re at a game; count the number of times the plate umpire says “yes he did” and how many times they say “ball” on their own.  
 

then add the number of appeals and keep track of how many times BU says “yes” and “no”

If they are getting less than 80% of those strikes, they are missing strikes 

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1 hour ago, Guest Daryl M said:

Can anyone explain why it is perfectly acceptable for a catcher to appeal a check swing to the 1st/3rd base umpire but a batter can’t?

No player can appeal a check swing. F2 can request that the plate umpire do so.

I did a 1-umpire game once, and F2 asked me to appeal a check swing call. So I checked with the batter's 1st base coach, and he said the batter didn't go.

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11 hours ago, Guest Daryl M said:

Can anyone explain why it is perfectly acceptable for a catcher to appeal a check swing to the 1st/3rd base umpire but a batter can’t?

When the PU is tracking the ball, he might *miss* the batter swinging. Something that happened, but was missed can be appealed. If the PU saw the batter swing, he didn't miss the action. 

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Daryl, it is because of what the rules allow and prohibit. Here is the relevant language of OBR 8.02(c) Comment: 

The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. . . . Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail. [My emphases.]

Consequently, if the plate umpire calls a strike on a checked swing, the batter has no recourse.

This, of course, does not address why there is the distinction in the rules, but my guess it is as noumpere said: "Something that happened, but was missed can be appealed. If the PU saw the batter swing, he didn't miss the action."

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13 hours ago, Guest Daryl M said:

Can anyone explain why it is perfectly acceptable for a catcher to appeal a check swing to the 1st/3rd base umpire but a batter can’t?

Because by rule:

1. you can only appeal on a called ball

2. only the defense can appeal a checked swing

 

13 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Because an appeal can only be made when a ball had been called.  Why would the batter want to appeal that?

There is a rare scenario where maybe a team would rather the batter got out than a runner that was caught stealing.  eg. weak batter with two strikes...he checks his swing, and R1 is thrown out at second for third out...coach might want to see if he swung - he wants the batter to be the third out to get a stronger batter leading off the next inning....by rule, the offense is NOT allowed to appeal a called ball.

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14 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Because by rule:

1. you can only appeal on a called ball

2. only the defense can appeal a checked swing

 

There is a rare scenario where maybe a team would rather the batter got out than a runner that was caught stealing.  eg. weak batter with two strikes...he checks his swing, and R1 is thrown out at second for third out...coach might want to see if he swung - he wants the batter to be the third out to get a stronger batter leading off the next inning....by rule, the offense is NOT allowed to appeal a called ball.

I had never considered this. Baseball is such a beautiful, nuanced, infinitely complex game. 

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1 minute ago, agdz59 said:

I had never considered this. Baseball is such a beautiful, nuanced, infinitely complex game. 

Whereas, if it was a strong batter the defense is allowed to appeal to try to get the third strike and ensure he doesn't lead off the next inning.  A weak batter, defense keeps their mouth shut and lets him lead off next inning.

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So.. If an PU call's a check swing a strike he cannot then go down to "A" if he suddenly realizes that might not have been to correct his error?

 

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And OR if the catcher blocks him out and he misses a swing completely but feels He missed it he cannot check for his own sake?

 

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4 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So.. If an PU call's a check swing a strike he cannot then go down to "A" if he suddenly realizes that might not have been to correct his error?

 

Edit

 

And OR if the catcher blocks him out and he misses a swing completely but feels He missed it he cannot check for his own sake?

 

Are you really asking for answers to these questions?

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1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

Are you really asking for answers to these questions?

Honestly yes and I asked here based on the check swing OP and the responses, trying to get more of a conversation going

 

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10 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So.. If an PU call's a check swing a strike he cannot then go down to "A" if he suddenly realizes that might not have been to correct his error?

I suppose he could, but why on earth would he? He's not calling enough strikes as it is.

11 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

And OR if the catcher blocks him out and he misses a swing completely but feels He missed it he cannot check for his own sake?

Sure he can. The rule restricts which team/players may request a check-swing appeal. It doesn't restrict the umpire.

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18 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So.. If an PU call's a check swing a strike he cannot then go down to "A" if he suddenly realizes that might not have been to correct his error?

 

Edit

 

And OR if the catcher blocks him out and he misses a swing completely but feels He missed it he cannot check for his own sake?

 

1) I would not have him do this.  The most would be an *IMMEDIATE* "yes he did -- no, I mean no he didn't" call (like a "safe-out" brain fart call on the bases) all on his own.

2) Of course he can.  You know this.

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2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

So.. If an PU call's a check swing a strike he cannot then go down to "A" if he suddenly realizes that might not have been to correct his error?

 

Edit

 

And OR if the catcher blocks him out and he misses a swing completely but feels He missed it he cannot check for his own sake?

 

your second example is a situation in which he would have called ball, so yes, he can appeal.

First situation he called a strike...no, you can not then appeal

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Guest DarylM
14 hours ago, noumpere said:

When the PU is tracking the ball, he might *miss* the batter swinging. Something that happened, but was missed can be appealed. If the PU saw the batter swing, he didn't miss the action. 

So you are saying an umpire can always tell if a batter has gone too far, but can’t tell if he didn’t sometimes? Seems to me if he can’t tell if he went too far then he can’t always be certain he did. I understand the rule, just think it isn’t fair. 

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9 hours ago, Guest DarylM said:

So you are saying an umpire can always tell if a batter has gone too far, but can’t tell if he didn’t sometimes? Seems to me if he can’t tell if he went too far then he can’t always be certain he did. I understand the rule, just think it isn’t fair. 

Yes: sometimes he sees the swing, and sometimes tracking the pitch prevents him from seeing it. If he sees it, he can judge it.

The rule is fair, because it's the same for both teams when they're on offense. 

Whether the rule offers a satisfactory balance between offense and defense is a matter of opinion. You're entitled to yours.

 

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9 hours ago, Guest DarylM said:

So you are saying an umpire can always tell if a batter has gone too far, but can’t tell if he didn’t sometimes? Seems to me if he can’t tell if he went too far then he can’t always be certain he did. I understand the rule, just think it isn’t fair. 

That's not what I said.

Sometimes PU sees a swing.  That's a strike.

Sometimes, PU doesn't see a swing.  If BU sees a swing (upon appeal) that's also a strike.

Lots of rules seem unfair.

 

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DarylM: Umpires don't guess, or at least, we're not supposed to. If the umpire sees a swing, it's a strike; if he/she doesn't or is unsure, it's a ball. In the latter case, we may go to our partner, either on our own motion or at the request of the defense.

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I think what bothers me the most about this discussion is I haven't seen anyone argue the part of the rule that says ATTEMPT.to swing.

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21 minutes ago, UMP45 said:

I think what bothers me the most about this discussion is I haven't seen anyone argue the part of the rule that says ATTEMPT.to swing.

Because that was not the question asked...no one asked what constitutes a swing, it was asked why, after calling strike/swing, the batter can not ask HPU to appeal to BU 

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On 7/19/2021 at 7:12 PM, maven said:

I did a 1-umpire game once, and F2 asked me to appeal a check swing call. So I checked with the batter's 1st base coach, and he said the batter didn't go.

You got hosed! I did the same thing and the kids coach rung him up for a strike!

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15 hours ago, Guest DarylM said:

So you are saying an umpire can always tell if a batter has gone too far, but can’t tell if he didn’t sometimes? Seems to me if he can’t tell if he went too far then he can’t always be certain he did. I understand the rule, just think it isn’t fair. 

I'm not clear on what is "unfair" - the rule applies to both teams equally.

The plate umpire either sees a swing or he doesn't...if he sees a swing he sees a swing...there's no fundamental reason to ask another umpire to override that judgment with a differing opinion.

There are many reasons why a plate umpire may not see a swing - in that case it makes sense to get a second opinion.

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Guest DarylM
6 hours ago, maven said:

Yes: sometimes he sees the swing, and sometimes tracking the pitch prevents him from seeing it. If he sees it, he can judge it.

The rule is fair, because it's the same for both teams when they're on offense. 

Whether the rule offers a satisfactory balance between offense and defense is a matter of opinion. You're entitled to yours.

 

That's just it, it is a judgement call - doesn't mean he is always correct. He sees every pitch but there are a lot of missed called strikes/balls. It should be fair to both offense and defense. If the defense can appeal a ball, then the offense should be able to appeal a strike IMO.

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Guest DarylM
51 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm not clear on what is "unfair" - the rule applies to both teams equally.

The plate umpire either sees a swing or he doesn't...if he sees a swing he sees a swing...there's no fundamental reason to ask another umpire to override that judgment with a differing opinion.

There are many reasons why a plate umpire may not see a swing - in that case it makes sense to get a second opinion.

What is unfair is the the defense can appeal but the offense can't, not that complicated. Umpires make mistakes on both sides so why give the defense a chance to appeal but not the offense?

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