Base award/verbal appeal/protest questions

[Guest Frankie]

I have a few questions about the final play of a 14U tournament game I was working alone under FED rules. In a tie game in the bottom of the 7th inning with a runner on second base and one out, the batter hits a fly ball to center field. F8 makes the catch and throws to third while the runner is returning to second base. The throw goes past the fence line and out of play, and I award R2 home per 8-3-3c, ending the game. The visiting players remain on the field as their coach comes out to dispute the base award. After I explain that the award is two bases, the visiting coach attempts to verbally appeal that the runner did not retouch second and I waved off the appeal as the runner did tag up amid all the chaos. Finally, he attempts to protest the game over the base award, and the tournament director told him that protests were only allowed on roster disputes. I have three questions about this play in hindsight:

1. Is the base award correct? I'm pretty sure about this one but wanted confirmation.

2. Is there any way for the defense to do a live-ball appeal on this play since the ball went out of play?

3. In general, how do I handle protests like this? If the TD had not been present, is it just a matter of looking up the rule on site?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Richvee]

You have the award right. two bases time of throw. 

FED allows dead ball appeals, so , the appeal is legal... it's the last play of the game, under FED rules on the last play of the game an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field. you say R2 went back and tagged, so rule the R2 safe, game over. If dead ball appeals were not allowed and the team wished to appeal this game ending play, you would give the pitcher another ball, put the ball in play, and let them throw to 2B. In this case the defense would have had to remain on the field.  

Tournament rules vary greatly on methods of protest. (But usually never resolved by the coaches and umpires looking up the rule. ) Some require coaches to put up money in order for a protest to be heard. I'm sure if that's the case here, the TD would be happy to oblige, because the coach isn't winning this protest.   

[Tborze]

It’s usually slow here on Sunday. 
 

1. Yes

2. Depends on rule set and game ending procedures. FED allows DB appeals. Usually after the game ends, an appeal must be done before all infielders leave the infield and/or Umps leave the field. 

3. Have them make a note in the book with reason for protest and sign it. 

[Guest Frankie]

20 minutes ago, Richvee said:

You have the award right. two bases time of throw. 

FED allows dead ball appeals, so , the appeal is legal... it's the last play of the game, under FED rules on the last play of the game an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field. you say R2 went back and tagged, so rule the R2 safe, game over. If dead ball appeals were not allowed and the team wished to appeal this game ending play, you would give the pitcher another ball, put the ball in play, and let them throw to 2B. In this case the defense would have had to remain on the field.  

Tournament rules vary greatly on methods of protest. (But usually never resolved by the coaches and umpires looking up the rule. ) Some require coaches to put up money in order for a protest to be heard. I'm sure if that's the case here, the TD would be happy to oblige, because the coach isn't winning this protest.   

Thanks! In this case, tournament rules only allow protests over roster disputes so it wasn’t heard (which did not make those coaches feel better).

[Richvee]

2 minutes ago, Guest Frankie said:

 (which did not make those coaches feel better).

They May have felt worse if the that had to pony up money for a protest, because it would have been over ruled. they should learn the rules. Two base award from the time of the throw is pretty basic even for a daddy coach. Were they actually trying to tell you r2 only gets 3b?  Because the actual touch and safe call on the appeal is not protestable. That’s judgment 

[Guest Frankie]

22 minutes ago, Richvee said:

They May have felt worse if the that had to pony up money for a protest, because it would have been over ruled. they should learn the rules. Two base award from the time of the throw is pretty basic even for a daddy coach. Were they actually trying to tell you r2 only gets 3b?  Because the actual touch and safe call on the appeal is not protestable. That’s judgment 

They argued that R2 should get “the base he was attempting plus one”, which would be third, and they tried to protest on those grounds. I’ve heard that myth a thousand times, not sure where it came from.

[Richvee]

5 minutes ago, Guest Frankie said:

They argued that R2 should get “the base he was attempting plus one”, which would be third, and they tried to protest on those grounds. I’ve heard that myth a thousand times, not sure where it came from.

Yep a common myth. I think it has some origins in a softball rule. So I’ve heard. 

[SH0102]

23 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Yep a common myth. I think it has some origins in a softball rule. So I’ve heard. 

That is a slow pitch softball rule .  I played tournament softball for a while and we had that…guy trying to get back to first after a catch, only gets second when throw goes OOP

[The Man in Blue]

On 7/11/2021 at 11:25 AM, Richvee said:

Yep a common myth. I think it has some origins in a softball rule. So I’ve heard. 

 

On 7/11/2021 at 11:50 AM, SH0102 said:

That is a slow pitch softball rule .  I played tournament softball for a while and we had that…guy trying to get back to first after a catch, only gets second when throw goes OOP

No, that is not the origin of that myth.  Before speaking up, I looked in the USSSA slow-pitch book and double-checked the USA book to see if there was a slow-pitch difference.  

I guess it easier to "blame it on that other sport" though.  🙄

[SH0102]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

No, that is not the origin of that myth.  I looked in the USSSA slow-pitch book and double-checked the slow-pitch section of the USA book to see if maybe it came from there before speaking up.

I guess it easier to "blame it on that other sport" though.  🙄

U-trip is not the only softball association.

And I never said that was its origin, but I’ve played softball since my baseball days ended, and in both my local league and in tournaments, it’s always been called that way.  So either every umpire I’ve ever played for was wrong, or it’s a rule

[The Man in Blue]

8 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

U-trip is not the only softball association.

And I never said that was its origin, but I’ve played softball since my baseball days ended, and in both my local league and in tournaments, it’s always been called that way.  So either every umpire I’ve ever played for was wrong, or it’s a rule

 

It absolutely could be a rule in another association.  But you didn't say that.  You didn't say what association you play.  You said "That is a slow-pitch softball rule."  I can say definitively it isn't USA, USSSA, or NFHS.

It absolutely could be a serious misapplication of an actual rule as well.

It would be like me working a Varsity NFHS game and sending a kid back for getting of the base too early because they do it in baseball (Little League, certain age).

I don't umpire slow-pitch and have no desire to.  However I do plenty of fastpitch softball and It bugs me when we can't just admit there are dumb umpires and have to resort on blaming stupid things on "the other sport" (whether that is baseball umpires blaming softball or softball umpires blaming baseball).

[SH0102]

4 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

It absolutely could come from another association.  But you didn't say that.  You didn't say what association you play.  You said "That is a slow-pitch softball rule."  I can say definitively it isn't USA, USSSA, or NFHS.

It would be like me working a Varsity NFHS game and sending a kid back for getting of the base too early because they do it in baseball (Little League, certain age).

I don't umpire slow-pitch and have no desire to.  However I do plenty of fastpitch softball and It bugs me when we can't just admit there are dumb umpires and have to resort on blaming stupid things on "the other sport" (whether that is baseball umpires blaming softball or softball umpires blaming baseball).

Or just stop playing grammar police and accept  that things like texts, discussion boards, internet articles, sometimes have translation skewed as writing doesn’t always come out the way it was thought.

I have played slow pitch softball, recreationally and competitively (world championships) and seen that rule called for 2 decades.  I’ve never asked the rule, or looked it up, and how often does it happen? Not terribly often, just became expected I guess.

But it is NOT a baseball rule, at any code, and it IS applied in slow pitch softball , whether this code or that idk and don’t really care.

But me saying it’s applied in slow pitch is not incorrect in of itself

[LRZ]

On 7/11/2021 at 10:41 AM, Guest Frankie said:

In general, how do I handle protests like this? If the TD had not been present, is it just a matter of looking up the rule on site?

I would guess that most umpires do not carry a rulebook onto the field, but if one is readily handy and can resolve an issue quickly, it could be reasonable to check. But if you're sure of the rule and your application, stand your ground and don't get bulldozed.

But--and this is a BIG BUT--do no allow a coach to come at you with a rulebook in hand, demanding that you consult it!

If a team wants to protest, that's not your concern, and tborze gave you the best advice above: have the coaches note the circumstances in the book and sign it. As the umpire, you do not have to "handle" the protest--that is for league/tournament officials.

[The Man in Blue]

24 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Or just stop playing grammar police and accept  that things like texts, discussion boards, internet articles, sometimes have translation skewed as writing doesn’t always come out the way it was thought.

I have played slow pitch softball, recreationally and competitively (world championships) and seen that rule called for 2 decades.  I’ve never asked the rule, or looked it up, and how often does it happen? Not terribly often, just became expected I guess.

But it is NOT a baseball rule, at any code, and it IS applied in slow pitch softball , whether this code or that idk and don’t really care.

But me saying it’s applied in slow pitch is not incorrect in of itself

 

I'm glad it applied in your unnamed code.  I'm just going to walk away from this inanity now.  The implications for umpiring are yours to judge.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

No, that is not the origin of that myth.  Before speaking up, I looked in the USSSA slow-pitch book and double-checked the USA book to see if there was a slow-pitch difference.  

I guess it easier to "blame it on that other sport" though.  🙄

I'm not a softball guy. My understanding is this is where the baseball myth originated. Here's a link to the FED softball dead ball table. Check out #28

https://nfhs.org/media/1017910/softball_dead_ball_tables_2020.pdf

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

I'm not a softball guy. My understanding is this is where the baseball myth originated. Here's a link to the FED softball dead ball table. Check out #28

https://nfhs.org/media/1017910/softball_dead_ball_tables_2020.pdf

I must be missing something ... none of that has anything to do with the question or the discussion.

28. Fielder loses possession and ball enters dead area (8-4-3e, 8-4-3g).  All runners awarded one base past last base touched at time ball enters deadball territory (8-4-3e PEN. EXCEPTION 1).

Rule 8 Batter-Runner and Runner

Section 4 Runners Entitled to Advance

Article 3 ... A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:

e. (with the penalty and the exception)

... and g. with the penalty

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

If I were looking for a potential source for this misapplication, I might look in the NFHS Baseball book ...

8.3.f. pertains to the batter-runner, but I could see somebody mis-reading and mis-applying it.

 

 

[JonnyCat]

This is from an old post of mine in 2016. The plus one rule does exist in slo-pitch softball. Not sure if it is still there, but it was in 2016.

 

"Sadly, the 1+1 rule does actually exist in USSSA slow pitch softball rules. I play Adult softball and at one game I was questioning the umpire on an overthrow award that I thought should have been two bases putting our runner on third. (Of course I asked between innings and did not make a big deal about it.) The umpire ruled (correctly) that in this situation it was 1+1, putting our runner on second base.

Thinking he got the base award incorrect, later that night I looked it up in the 2016 USSSA slow pitch softball rule book, and lo and behold on page 48:

Section 9D: "A base runner returning to a base to retag a base on a fly ball caught and thrown by a fielder to any base. If the ball is thrown by a fielder into the restricted area, the base runner shall be awarded the base he must retouch, plus one base. Since the base runner is required to regain the base he first occupied, he is awarded that base and only one more." (emphasis mine)

BTW. That stupid arse rule cost me a bet. The site director of the complex we play at used to play on our team. After the game that evening we were discussing the rule. I was insistent that there was no such thing as 1+1 in any rule set. After looking it up, I had to sheepishly pay up in a beer! (And a little pride)

Yes it does exist, much to my surprise."

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I must be missing something ... none of that has anything to do with the question or the discussion.

28. Fielder loses possession and ball enters dead area (8-4-3e, 8-4-3g).  All runners awarded one base past last base touched at time ball enters deadball territory (8-4-3e PEN. EXCEPTION 1).

Rule 8 Batter-Runner and Runner

Section 4 Runners Entitled to Advance

Article 3 ... A runner is entitled to advance without liability to be put out when:

e. (with the penalty and the exception)

... and g. with the penalty

 

 

Like I said, I don’t do, I don’t know, nor do I care to learn any code’s softball rules. I simply cited  a softball base award that MAY be a source of the one base award myth. 

[The Man in Blue]

10 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

This is from an old post of mine in 2016. The plus one rule does exist in slo-pitch softball. Not sure if it is still there, but it was in 2016.

 

"Sadly, the 1+1 rule does actually exist in USSSA slow pitch softball rules. I play Adult softball and at one game I was questioning the umpire on an overthrow award that I thought should have been two bases putting our runner on third. (Of course I asked between innings and did not make a big deal about it.) The umpire ruled (correctly) that in this situation it was 1+1, putting our runner on second base.

Thinking he got the base award incorrect, later that night I looked it up in the 2016 USSSA slow pitch softball rule book, and lo and behold on page 48:

Section 9D: "A base runner returning to a base to retag a base on a fly ball caught and thrown by a fielder to any base. If the ball is thrown by a fielder into the restricted area, the base runner shall be awarded the base he must retouch, plus one base. Since the base runner is required to regain the base he first occupied, he is awarded that base and only one more." (emphasis mine)

BTW. That stupid arse rule cost me a bet. The site director of the complex we play at used to play on our team. After the game that evening we were discussing the rule. I was insistent that there was no such thing as 1+1 in any rule set. After looking it up, I had to sheepishly pay up in a beer! (And a little pride)

Yes it does exist, much to my surprise."

 

 

Thank you JonnyCat, and I will eat crow, but will do so happily since I tried to back it up with rule citations.

Since you were able to provide some direction, I was able to find it.  Yes, it is still there as 8.9.D.  It isn't worded as 1+1, but that the runner gets a two base award, and if the runner needs to retouch, that shall be considered the first one.  

However, it is not in the "runners may advance without liability to be put out" (base awards) section (8.7) and there is no reference to it there.  It is under "BASE RUNNERS MAY, AND SHALL, RETURN TO BASES AT VARIOUS TIMES:"  Not an excuse, just the reason I didn't find it.  

[JonnyCat]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

 

Thank you JonnyCat, and I will eat crow, but will do so happily since I tried to back it up with rule citations.

Since you were able to provide some direction, I was able to find it.  Yes, it is still there.  However, it is not in the base awards section and there is no reference to it there.  It is under "BASE RUNNERS MAY, AND SHALL, RETURN TO BASES AT VARIOUS TIMES:"  Not an excuse, just the reason I didn't find it.  

No problem MIB. I remembered posting this a few years ago and luckily was able to find it.

And that stupid rule caused me to eat crow, too!!! 

[The Man in Blue]

One of my favorite podcasts wrapped up and signed off a few months back.  One of the funny things on their show were the sounders they would play.  I cannot find this online to post it, but one that they played was a British gentleman asking (and I may have this slightly wrong)

"If you aren't willing to do the work Brian, then why bother asking the question?"

[SeeingEyeDog]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

One of my favorite podcasts wrapped up and signed off a few months back.  One of the funny things on their show were the sounders they would play.  I cannot find this online to post it, but one that they played was a British gentleman asking (and I may have this slightly wrong)

"If you aren't willing to do the work Brian, then why bother asking the question?"

For those old enough to remember when the album was released and it was akin to aliens landing...that quote above sounds like what might have been a dropped, alternative line from Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall, part 2" which was, "If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!"

For those not old enough to remember when that album landed on us, turn off the lights, light a candle, and give "The Wall" multiple listenings. I still hear something new every time...

~Dawg

 

[agdz59]

3 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

For those old enough to remember when the album was released and it was akin to aliens landing...that quote above sounds like what might have been a dropped, alternative line from Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall, part 2" which was, "If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!"

For those not old enough to remember when that album landed on us, turn off the lights, light a candle, and give "The Wall" multiple listenings. I still hear something new every time...

~Dawg

 

Oh yes.  And Dark Side of the Moon as well of course.

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding!"

How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!?!?!