Runner placement and Scorekeeping

[Guest Zach]

I am the scorekeeper for my brother's 16u team as well as my HS teams scorekeeper I normally have no issues but today I got confused on a play.

My brother batting, 1 out runner on 3rd. Hits a line drive down the left field line on a field with no side fence. My brother gets halfway between 1st and 2nd then the left fielder kicks the batted Ball past the fence line and out of play as he tries to pick it up.

He is placed at third base. I believe this is the correct ruling after looking at the NFHS placement chart. Would the placement be different in OBR? Also would he receive a single, double or triple?

At the time I gave it a double and an error. But now I think it should be a single and a 2 base error since he last legally touched 1st.

Thanks

[flyingron]

OBR 5.02(a)(8)

Any bounding fair ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over or under a fence on fair or foul territory, in which case the batter and all runners shall be entitled to advance two bases;

As for the scoring, I agree (one-base hit plus an error on the fielder).   In both cases (determining the scoring and determining what base to award) the rules refer to "last legally touched" base.

[SH0102]

2 hours ago, flyingron said:

OBR 5.02(a)(8)

Any bounding fair ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over or under a fence on fair or foul territory, in which case the batter and all runners shall be entitled to advance two bases;

As for the scoring, I agree (one-base hit plus an error on the fielder).   In both cases (determining the scoring and determining what base to award) the rules refer to "last legally touched" base.

I’ll admit, I know very little about scorekeeping. As an umpire, I don’t care much about it, but I think it should be a double and error.

The error occurred, but the hit is not defined by the base award. The award (penalty) is two bases, but the hit is determined by where the batter would have been had an error not occurred, which is clearly second.  

In this regard, I’d view the scorekeepers job in judgment akin to an umpires when he must judge where runners would have ended up had obstruction not occurred.  You make best judgment and do not “go crazy” in placement

[flyingron]

I believe as far as the scoring in the OBR, the "woulda" rules only apply in certain listed circumstances and the 5.02 award isn't one of them.

[Senor Azul]

Good question, Zach! I have never dealt with this situation before so I am going to rely on Andres Wirkmaa and his book Baseball Scorekeeping. He says the applicable scorekeeping rule would be OBR rule 9.06(e). Here it is-- 

2021 OBR rule 9.06(e) When a batter-runner is awarded two bases, three bases or a home run under the provisions of Rules 5.06(b)(4) or 6.01(h), the Official Scorer shall credit the batter-runner with a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run, as the case may be.

Here is how Mr. Wirkmaa explains this rule…a batter awarded extra bases on what might be considered a technicality is no different in the overall scheme of things from a batter achieving extra bases in a more orthodox manner. 

If we follow this scorekeeping rule then it would remove any guesswork from the scorer’s job. So as I understand Mr. Wirkmaa’s reasoning, the batter in the OP would be credited with a triple.

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Good question, Zach! I have never dealt with this situation before so I am going to rely on Andres Wirkmaa and his book Baseball Scorekeeping. He says the applicable scorekeeping rule would be OBR rule 9.06(e). Here it is-- 

2021 OBR rule 9.06(e) When a batter-runner is awarded two bases, three bases or a home run under the provisions of Rules 5.06(b)(4) or 6.01(h), the Official Scorer shall credit the batter-runner with a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run, as the case may be.

Here is how Mr. Wirkmaa explains this rule…a batter awarded extra bases on what might be considered a technicality is no different in the overall scheme of things from a batter achieving extra bases in a more orthodox manner. 

If we follow this scorekeeping rule then it would remove any guesswork from the scorer’s job. So as I understand Mr. Wirkmaa’s reasoning, the batter in the OP would be credited with a triple.

5.06(b)(4) is about detached equipment.   6.01(h) is about obstruction. Neither apply here.

I'm scoring it a 2B and an error as it was the error that allowed (via award but allowed nonetheless) the BR to go to 3B.  Sans error he's at 2B. 

 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Rich Ives, I have grown weary of you forcing me to defend something that shouldn’t need any defending. OBR rule 5.06(b)(4) has 9 subparagraphs labeled A-I. Yes, the first five parts, consisting of A through E, deal with detached equipment.  Apparently you stopped reading after subparagraph E, though, because F through I exist and deal with other types of base awards.

You would be better served if you stopped desperately trying to catch me in a mistake. I have shown you to be wrong dozens of times and yet you somehow still think you know more than any expert I cite. You can score the play in question any way you like. As for me, I’ll stick with real experts.

[Rich Ives]

12 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Rich Ives, I have grown weary of you forcing me to defend something that shouldn’t need any defending. OBR rule 5.06(b)(4) has 9 subparagraphs labeled A-I. Yes, the first five parts, consisting of A through E, deal with detached equipment.  Apparently you stopped reading after subparagraph E, though, because F through I exist and deal with other types of base awards.

You would be better served if you stopped desperately trying to catch me in a mistake. I have shown you to be wrong dozens of times and yet you somehow still think you know more than any expert I cite. You can score the play in question any way you like. As for me, I’ll stick with real experts.

2B + error.  The fair ball did not deflect out of the playing field. It was kicked by the fielder. Treat it as a throw OOB.  I'm not trying to desparate4ly catch you in a mistake. I'm presenting my opinion. 

 

This is what happened.

9.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 9.12.
(a) The Official Scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases,

 

[The Man in Blue]

I’m still wondering why people keep asking umpires about bookkeeping.

I know it appears in some rulebooks, but I will have to admit I have NEVER read any of those sections.

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I’m still wondering why people keep asking umpires about bookkeeping.

I know it appears in some rulebooks, but I will have to admit I have NEVER read any of those sections.

We give new umpires crude advice as to what a new umpire should do with the scorekeeping pages in their rulebook. But before they tear them out of the FED rulebook we advise them to retain and read 9-1-1a,b,c,d,e. I don't think that is covered in the previous chapters of the FED book.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

2B + error.  The fair ball did not deflect out of the playing field. It was kicked by the fielder. Treat it as a throw OOB.  I'm not trying to desparate4ly catch you in a mistake. I'm presenting my opinion.

That's what I would have -- with the caveat that I haven't read the scoring section of any of the rule books on this issue.

 

it's the same (to me) as if F7 picked up the ball, threw to third and the ball skipped past F5 and into the dugout.  Absent the error, BR gets a double; with the error he's awarded third.  That seems, to me, to properly account for the bases.

 

Unless, of course, the batter needs a triple to hit for the cycle, and then the coach buys him a pizza and he's going to share some of that with the OP.  In that case, if I'm the OP, it's a triple.

 

 

[beerguy55]

Since it's your brother, it's a triple.

An impartial scorekeeper would usually rule this a double plus an error.

On 7/6/2021 at 10:25 AM, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Rich Ives, I have grown weary of you forcing me to defend something that shouldn’t need any defending. OBR rule 5.06(b)(4) has 9 subparagraphs labeled A-I. Yes, the first five parts, consisting of A through E, deal with detached equipment.  Apparently you stopped reading after subparagraph E, though, because F through I exist and deal with other types of base awards.

You would be better served if you stopped desperately trying to catch me in a mistake. I have shown you to be wrong dozens of times and yet you somehow still think you know more than any expert I cite. You can score the play in question any way you like. As for me, I’ll stick with real experts.

You must be willing to accept that this ball is both "deflected" AND an "error".  As such it does straddle the line a bit, but the "error" should take precedence.   It's an error that allowed the runner to advance a base, whether by award or not.   This was going to be a double otherwise (that part is judgment...the scorekeeper could conceivably determine it would have only been a single before the muff).

It should also be noted that errors apply to muffs or misplays...not lapses in judgment or decision making - so a fielder who throws his glove and deflects the ball, for example, would not be charged with an error...as such, the award is third base, and the proper scorekeeping notation is a triple.

If you want an expert...in the relativity of this board, and in most environments, I am an expert in scorekeeping...I have trained others in scorekeeping, and I have been official scorekeeper for our national championships - I accept that I could still be wrong, still have much to learn, and maybe a pro would rule differently, but I would rule this a double with the runner reaching third on an error by F7...and I think my opinion is more defensible.

Otherwise, under subparagraph G the batter would be awarded a double on a throw into the stands from F6. IMO, Wirkmaa is contextually speaking of plays that do not involve defensive errors.

Ignoring the error on the play would be inappropriate.  And you can't score both a triple AND an error.

Scoring a triple that was only possible via a textbook "according to Hoyle" error, as defined by the baseball scorekeeping rules, circumvents the spirit of the scorekeeping rules.   

[Senor Azul]

Funny thing, Mr. beerguy55 et al., is that you would have been right in your scoring interpretation had this been 1950-1954.

DETERMINING VALUE OF BASE HITS

1950 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the scorer believes the hit would have been a legitimate home run, despite illegal use of equipment, he shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order.

1953 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the umpire awards the batter a home run, despite illegal use of equipment, the scorer shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. Charge the fielder guilty of the rules violation with an error whenever a runner or runners are advanced two bases under playing rule 7.05 (d).

1954 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the umpire awards the batter a home run, despite illegal use of equipment, the scorer shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. Charge the fielder guilty of the rules violation with an error whenever a runner or runners are advanced two bases under playing rule 7.05 (d and e).

By 1957 the rule had become 10.07(e):  When the batter-runner is awarded two bases, three bases or a home run under the provisions of Playing Rule 7.05, he shall be credited with a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run, as the case may be.

The 1957 rule has remained pretty much the same ever since. The odd thing about the evolution of this rule is that it has gone the exact opposite of what one would expect if your interpretation of scoring were correct. As for Mr. Wirkmaa’s interpretation of current rule 9.06(e), his book came out in 2003 and it was reviewed by SABR Bookshelf and Baseball Digest magazine among others. Nobody claimed to have found a glaring error in his interpretation of that rule or any other--until now when it has not passed muster under the heavy scrutiny of U-E’s resident experts.

[beerguy55]

So, @Senor Azul, you would apply Wirkmaa's interpretation, under 5.06(b)(4) subsection G, that when a hitter is awarded second base after F6 throws the ball into the stands it is not an error, and the batter is credited with a double?   Or, on a hit to the gap, after the batter has passed second base F8 throws the ball over third base and into the dugout, awarding the batter home, that it's not a double and an error, it's actually a homerun?

Of course not...because that's not a batted ball anymore.

Well, that's what happens on any error.   Once the fielder muffs the ball, where it is ruled an error, anything that happens after that is not a batted ball.  If the ball goes out of play the impetus came from the fielder's error, not the batter.  It's treated like a "thrown" ball at that point, and awarded accordingly.  In the OP, the ball was kicked out of play...the ump rules the reward from the time of the kick.   The scorekeeper does the same.

Otherwise, if it's simply seen as a deflection, then it's ruled as any other batted ball would be ruled.