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Jump spin pickoff to 2nd


Scissors

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I've noticed a lot of guys in my league don't call this but I wanted some clarification. On a jump spin pickoff attempt to 2nd, do F1s feet need to land simultaneously? If his pivot food lands first, then I am led to believe that would be a balk because he did not step off directly behind the rubber. I attached a picture to help illustrate.

jump spin.png

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Is this really an issue where you umpire? Is the pitcher pirouetting? Can you really perceive the fraction of a second between one foot landing, followed virtually simultaneously by the other? As I said in another thread, I'm focussed on the ball in case of a throw to see feet that precisely.

I suspect you are confusing issues. "The "step off directly behind the rubber" language refers to disengaging. In a jump turn or spin move, he is not considered to have disengaged, so your "balk logic for not stepping back" reasoning is incorrect. 

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A guy I respect a lot put it like this: "It's almost impossibe for a pitcher to balk to second base with his motion."  To get in a position to throw to second quickly, they are almost forced to spin or jump.  They can feint there all they want. About the only way to balk via a throw is with a 'gorilla-arm' balk where they are swinging their pitching arm while taking a sign and then sling it around while still engaged. 

Other than that, you got dropping the ball, throwing to a fielder too far away to make a play or when there is no runner there and nobody coming from 1st. 

Others can probably name more ways to balk to 2nd but that advice has helped me focus on the right stuff while in C.

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58 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

A guy I respect a lot put it like this: "It's almost impossibe for a pitcher to balk to second base with his motion."  To get in a position to throw to second quickly, they are almost forced to spin or jump.  They can feint there all they want. About the only way to balk via a throw is with a 'gorilla-arm' balk where they are swinging their pitching arm while taking a sign and then sling it around while still engaged. 

Other than that, you got dropping the ball, throwing to a fielder too far away to make a play or when there is no runner there and nobody coming from 1st. 

Others can probably name more ways to balk to 2nd but that advice has helped me focus on the right stuff while in C.

Not gaining ground. I had a kid lift his leg and turn to 2nd, but his non-pivot leg (stride leg) never crossed the rubber.  Went nearly straight down.

Called balk

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4 hours ago, Scissors said:

On a jump spin pickoff attempt to 2nd, do F1s feet need to land simultaneously? If his pivot food lands first, then I am led to believe that would be a balk because he did not step off directly behind the rubber.

That's not disengagement at all, it's a jump turn. If it's not disengagement, it can't be illegal disengagement.

The jump spin on a pick to 1B requires F1 to throw, because it's a move from the rubber. Same here: we don't care at all about the pivot. The free foot has to gain some distance toward 2B relative to where it started (not relative to the rubber).

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Mr. agdz59, given your absolute refusal to accept anything contrary to your understanding of the rules (in a thread about the hidden ball trick), I am a bit hesitant to correct you here and now. But here goes. You stated, “throwing to a fielder too far away to make a play would be a balk. No, it wouldn't be!

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.25, p. 117):  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pickoff at second base and seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 104):  Once a pitcher steps towards second base, he has fulfilled all of his requirements as a pitcher. He may then throw the ball to anywhere on the field without taking another step, except to another base. If he throws to another base, he must move his non-pivot foot a distance and direction from the position it landed in his initial step (though not necessarily directly to the base he throws to because he is now an infielder).

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9 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. agdz59, given your absolute refusal to accept anything contrary to your understanding of the rules (in a thread about the hidden ball trick), I am a bit hesitant to correct you here and now. But here goes. You stated, “throwing to a fielder too far away to make a play would be a balk. No, it wouldn't be!

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.25, p. 117):  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pickoff at second base and seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 104):  Once a pitcher steps towards second base, he has fulfilled all of his requirements as a pitcher. He may then throw the ball to anywhere on the field without taking another step, except to another base. If he throws to another base, he must move his non-pivot foot a distance and direction from the position it landed in his initial step (though not necessarily directly to the base he throws to because he is now an infielder).

That does not make sense. If he has become an infielder he can throw anywhere.

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14 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Not gaining ground. I had a kid lift his leg and turn to 2nd, but his non-pivot leg (stride leg) never crossed the rubber.  Went nearly straight down.

Called balk

It doesn't have to cross the rubber - it just needs to come down closer to the base.

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52 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

It doesn't have to cross the rubber - it just needs to come down closer to the base.

You have to step towards the base, gain ground. If you want to count 1” as gaining ground, more power to you

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13 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. agdz59, given your absolute refusal to accept anything contrary to your understanding of the rules (in a thread about the hidden ball trick), I am a bit hesitant to correct you here and now. But here goes. You stated, “throwing to a fielder too far away to make a play would be a balk. No, it wouldn't be!

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.25, p. 117):  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pickoff at second base and seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 104):  Once a pitcher steps towards second base, he has fulfilled all of his requirements as a pitcher. He may then throw the ball to anywhere on the field without taking another step, except to another base. If he throws to another base, he must move his non-pivot foot a distance and direction from the position it landed in his initial step (though not necessarily directly to the base he throws to because he is now an infielder).

Thanks for the cite Mr. Blue. It is indeed hard to balk to second.

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2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

It doesn't have to cross the rubber - it just needs to come down closer to the base.

This has been discussed here several times in the past couple of years.  Matt has a good analysis of it.  I think the ruling is that the free foot must cross the rubber.

 

Someone with better search skills than I can find it.

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On 7/5/2021 at 12:27 PM, noumpere said:

This has been discussed here several times in the past couple of years.  Matt has a good analysis of it.  I think the ruling is that the free foot must cross the rubber.

 

Someone with better search skills than I can find it.

Rule only requires closer.  Nothing in the rule or the MLBUM says "cross the rubber"

MLBUM: "In stepping to a base, the pitcher must lift his entire non-pivot foot off the ground and bring it down in a location different from where it started and toward the base. The entire non-pivot foot must move in a direction and distance to the base. This will constitute a step. The pitcher is not allowed to lift his non-pivot foot up and bring it back down in the same spot where it started. In stepping, the heel of the pitcher's free foot may not end up in the same spot it started."

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On 7/5/2021 at 11:27 AM, noumpere said:

This has been discussed here several times in the past couple of years.  Matt has a good analysis of it.  I think the ruling is that the free foot must cross the rubber.

 

Someone with better search skills than I can find it.

There you go, sport.

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