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Balk or no!


Guest Ted in KC

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Guest Ted in KC

Guys,

Been umpiring for 18 years and study rules, interpretation, etc. pretty hard. Worked with a young man who has high aspirations and is good. Goes to a lot of clinics where he said he learned - a pitcher must move his pivot foot to throw to a base. Example - right handed pitcher steps with his free foot and throws to first, but his pivot foot remains pitchers plate and never moves. Legal or not?

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21 minutes ago, Guest Ted in KC said:

Guys,

Been umpiring for 18 years and study rules, interpretation, etc. pretty hard. Worked with a young man who has high aspirations and is good. Goes to a lot of clinics where he said he learned - a pitcher must move his pivot foot to throw to a base. Example - right handed pitcher steps with his free foot and throws to first, but his pivot foot remains pitchers plate and never moves. Legal or not?

Legal. Can’t believe a lot of clinics are that wrong. 

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This is total speculation on my part because I can't believe this is being taught at a "camp"...

Perhaps where the instructors in question are getting confused is, the base awards on a ball thrown out of play are different for the pitcher if he is in contact with the pitcher's plate than if he has legally disengaged from the pitcher's plate (making him a fielder) and thrown the ball out of play.

🤷‍♂️

~Dawg 

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4 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

This is total speculation on my part because I can't believe this is being taught at a "camp"...

Perhaps where the instructors in question are getting confused is, the base awards on a ball thrown out of play are different for the pitcher if he is in contact with the pitcher's plate than if he has legally disengaged from the pitcher's plate (making him a fielder) and thrown the ball out of play.

🤷‍♂️

~Dawg 

Keep in mind a camp is often not the same as a clinic. The former tends to be a place to be seen, the latter is a place to learn.

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On 6/25/2021 at 10:22 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

This is total speculation on my part because I can't believe this is being taught at a "camp"...

Perhaps where the instructors in question are getting confused is, the base awards on a ball thrown out of play are different for the pitcher if he is in contact with the pitcher's plate than if he has legally disengaged from the pitcher's plate (making him a fielder) and thrown the ball out of play.

🤷‍♂️

~Dawg 

It's also possible that the difference was between "breaking contact" (on a jab step, for example) and "disengaging."

 

Or, that the instructor was answering one question while the umpire heard another question (and either of those might have been the question that was actually asked) -- that has happened a lot at clinics, both those I have attended and those I have taught

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On 6/25/2021 at 5:16 PM, Guest Ted in KC said:

right handed pitcher steps with his free foot and throws to first, but his pivot foot remains pitchers plate and never moves.

 

23 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

(requiring a pitcher to disengage for a pickoff)?

What about left-handed pitchers??? 

Why would TPTB ever make a rule that completely handicaps one side of the pitching ranks, but gives free-reign to the other? 

The step-back disengagement isn’t the requirement; it’s the remaining option should the pitcher use up his pickoff attempts… as a pitcher.

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Don't shoot the messenger @MadMax!  😁

I remember the Atlantic League testing it, then saw this when I read the article about limiting pickoff attempts ...

https://www.mlb.com/news/baseball-rule-changes-tested-in-minor-leagues-in-2021

THE “STEP OFF” RULE (ALL HIGH-A)

This change is aimed at increasing the number of stolen-base attempts and, perhaps, the stolen-base success rate. By forcing pitchers to fully step off the rubber before attempting a pickoff, the move by left-handed pitchers -- think Andy Pettitte -- to raise the right knee up in the delivery and then throw to first is eliminated. Snap throws followed by the step off are prohibited.

When this rule was tested in the Atlantic League in 2019, runners were more ambitious with their leads and more successful with their stolen-base attempts.

Conceivably, this change could have an impact on the pitcher-hitter dynamic, as well. If the pitcher is more mindful of the running game, he may throw more fastballs in the zone, leading to more offensive action.

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I had someone tell me something similar a few weeks ago about the jump turn. Told me on the jump move for a RHP to 1b, the pivot foot must land on the ground first….,and  closer to 3b than where it originally started, plus the free foot gaining ground towards 1b. 

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2 hours ago, Richvee said:

I had someone tell me something similar a few weeks ago about the jump turn. Told me on the jump move for a RHP to 1b, the pivot foot must land on the ground first….,and  closer to 3b than where it originally started, plus the free foot gaining ground towards 1b. 

Technically, yes.

Nope.

Only if it's from the rubber, which goes back to the first comment. We generally allow the pivot foot to be the first movement and be a disengagement as long as it is not contemporaneous with the free foot's initial movement. If you can't tell them apart, it's from the rubber.

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On 7/2/2021 at 9:17 PM, Matt said:

Technically, yes.

Nope.

Only if it's from the rubber, which goes back to the first comment. We generally allow the pivot foot to be the first movement and be a disengagement as long as it is not contemporaneous with the free foot's initial movement. If you can't tell them apart, it's from the rubber.

Oh , I agree. The blue you highlighted is what made me say , “ Huh? “. But I was in no mood that day for a debate… Especially with the person  who said it. 

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On 7/2/2021 at 9:17 PM, Matt said:

the pivot foot must land on the ground first

Matt, can you provide a rule or case for this, please? And does this apply to OBR, NFHS, LL?

I'm not arguing the point, although I'd be hard-pressed to actually see a violation, as long as both feet land at approximately the same time. As the BU, I'm focussed more on the ball ("keep your eye everlastingly upon the ball"), to get the possible tag/out/safe call, than the pitcher's feet; as the HP, I'm probably too far away and with a bad angle.

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Mr. LRZ, actually there is a FED case play. I don’t think this applies to OBR or to NCAA. I cannot find anything for those codes that talks about the where, when, or how the pivot foot should land--only about the stride foot.

2020 NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.3 Situation J:  R2 is on second. From the set position, F1 uses a jump turn. He comes down astride his plate with nonpivot foot toward second base and throws or feints there. RULING:  Legal. COMMENT:  F1’s pivot foot shall contact the ground before he releases the ball.

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11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. LRZ, actually there is a FED case play. I don’t think this applies to OBR or to NCAA. I cannot find anything for those codes that talks about the where, when, or how the pivot foot should land--only about the stride foot.

2020 NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.3 Situation J:  R2 is on second. From the set position, F1 uses a jump turn. He comes down astride his plate with nonpivot foot toward second base and throws or feints there. RULING:  Legal. COMMENT:  F1’s pivot foot shall contact the ground before he releases the ball.

Evans balk video shows a pick to 1B as a balk when the ball was released with both feet in the air. 

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Oh, I misunderstood, thinking folks were saying that the pivot foot had to come down before the other foot. But the point being made is that the pivot foot has to come down before the release of the pick-off throw.

That makes more sense, but it's still something I'd probably have trouble perceiving so precisely. 

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