Infield fly rule

[Guest B Smith]

Bases are loaded with one out. The batter hits a Fly ball hit straight up, close to third baseline, closer to the catcher than third base. Third baseman charges in to try to catch the ball about 20 feet from home plate. The umpire DID NOT call the infield fly rule. The ball tips off the third baseman’s glove, hits the ground in fair territory and bounces foul. Runners do not advance because of confusion. The third baseman retrieves the ball and throws it to the catcher who steps on home plate. The catcher throws the ball to first base and the hitter and the runner who was on first are both tagged. The runner on third runs home while the first baseman is holding the ball waiting on a decision from one of the umpires. After the umpires conference, they let the runner who came home from third score and the inning continued with only 2 outs. Was this correct?

[noumpere]

It depends a little on the rules code being used.

 

in FED, the *situation*, not the umpires determine the infield fly.  So, the batter would have been out on the infield fly.  That removes any force outs, so R3 is not out when home was touched.  .  R1 would still be entitled to first, so he would not be out when tagged.  This sounds like what the umpires did.

 

Under OBR (I *think* -- this might have been changed), then if the defense gets one or zero outs, the play stands.  If the defense gets two (or three!) outs, then the umpires fix it for what likely would have happened had they made the call.  In your play, the defense obtained two outs -- R3 who was forced and thus was out when home was tagged, and R1 who was forced an thus out when tagged.  SO, to fix it, the umpires should call BR out on the infield fly and put all other runners back.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, Guest B Smith said:

Bases are loaded with one out. The batter hits a Fly ball hit straight up, close to third baseline, closer to the catcher than third base. Third baseman charges in to try to catch the ball about 20 feet from home plate. The umpire DID NOT call the infield fly rule. The ball tips off the third baseman’s glove, hits the ground in fair territory and bounces foul. Runners do not advance because of confusion. The third baseman retrieves the ball and throws it to the catcher who steps on home plate. The catcher throws the ball to first base and the hitter and the runner who was on first are both tagged. The runner on third runs home while the first baseman is holding the ball waiting on a decision from one of the umpires. After the umpires conference, they let the runner who came home from third score and the inning continued with only 2 outs. Was this correct?

Where was the ball when it hit the fielder's glove? Doesn't matter where it hit the ground after that.

[WilsonFlyer]

13 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Where was the ball when it hit the fielder's glove? Doesn't matter where it hit the ground after that.

A clarification which must absolutely be answered before we can answer the question regardless.

[ArchAngel72]

OP Does need to clarify where was the fielders glove when the ball touched it was his glove in fair or foul ?  If foul Foul ball and reset everyone as such.

If it was fair ...

Because it was not routine effort and they were not camped near the ball when coming down  NO IFF rule should be called imho.  If F6 had to make a running effort at it and was barely able to get there that's not normal effort to me. 

So due to it touching the fielder in fair I have Fair ball  1 out at home.

Something to clarify was the bag touched before the runners?  Did the batter runner reach 1st before being tagged? 

If the BR reached 1st and is on the bag it does not matter when he was tagged he is safe, then if they were both tagged R1 is out and BR becomes the new R1 with 2 outs and the run does not score as he was already out on a force out

If the BR stopped short of 1st it does matter if he is tagged 1st then R1 would be safe if he was tagged 2nd

If R1 was tagged and BR had never reached 1st and either the bag or he was tagged prior to touching 1st then  that would result in 3 outs.

 

( Fixed a mental messup on allowing runner from 3rd to score after already stating he was out. )

 

[Tborze]

35 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

OP Does need to clarify where was the fielders glove when the ball touched it was his glove in fair or foul ?  If foul Foul ball and reset everyone as such.

If it was fair ...

Because it was not routine effort and they were not camped near the ball when coming down  NO IFF rule should be called imho.  If F6 had to make a running effort at it and was barely able to get there that's not normal effort to me. 

So due to it touching the fielder in fair I have Fair ball  1 out at home.

Something to clarify was the bag touched before the runners?  Did the batter runner reach 1st before being tagged? 

If the BR reached 1st and is on the bag it does not matter when he was tagged he is safe, then if they were both tagged R1 is out and BR becomes the new R1 with 2 outs and the run scores

If the BR stopped short of 1st it does matter if he is tagged 1st then R1 would be safe if he was tagged 2nd

If R1 was tagged and BR had never reached 1st and either the bag or he was tagged prior to touching 1st then  that would result in 3 outs and the run should not score

 

Just because F5 couldn't get to it with ordinary effort doesn't mean other fielders couldn't have.  The rule is in place to protect the OT from this.  Call the IFF.  

[MT73]

In OBR an uncalled infield fly that should have been called can be fixed if the defense gains an unfair advantage—such as a double play.

In this case it does not appear that the umpires thought it could be caught with ordinary effort.

‘So—R3 out on force at home.

R1 out on force.

Inning over.

If they deem it to be an IFF then the batter is out.

Negate the other outs and resume play with bases loaded and now 2 outs.

[Tborze]

6 minutes ago, MT73 said:

In OBR an uncalled infield fly that should have been called can be fixed if the defense gains an unfair advantage—such as a double play.

In this case it does not appear that the umpires thought it could be caught with ordinary effort.

‘So—R3 out on force at home.

R1 out on force.

Inning over.

A FLY BALL 20' from HP ?  This is an IFF, even in 8u!  

[aaluck]

21 hours ago, Guest B Smith said:

The ball tips off the third baseman’s glove, hits the ground in fair territory and bounces foul

Okay. From that description it would probably be a fair ball. (If it tipped off his glove while over foul territory into fair I cannot see how it would then reverse course and go back foul--just an assumption). So we have a ball in play, no IIF called.

I have no runs scored and end of inning--out at home on the force and out at first before the score.

21 hours ago, Guest B Smith said:

they let the runner who came home from third score and the inning continued with only 2 outs. Was this correct?

This doesn't make much sense to me.  What did they do with the TWO guys on first base?  We know one of them is out (lead I'm assuming unless the throw beat the BR) and we know we have the out at home on the force.

[urout17]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

A FLY BALL 20' from HP ?  This is an IFF, even in 8u!  

Hmm....had this happen a few years ago.  18U, OBR, R1 and R2, one out, infield playing back.  The BR pops one up right over the pitchers mound.  The pitcher instantly bails on the play.  The SS comes racing in from deep short, trips over the mound and falls, never touching the ball.  The ball hits the front end of the mound and ricochets into foul territory half way between HP and third base.  I had the plate that day. Once I saw the pitcher bail I thought to myself, Ok, NOW who's gonna make this play? No IFF was called. I called foul ball and the next thing I have is a HC coming out asking why the IFF rule wasn't called.  I explained the whole rule which he didn't like but walked away.  It seems a lot of people don't realize there's more to the IFF rule than just runners on base.  

[ArchAngel72]

2 hours ago, Tborze said:

Just because F5 couldn't get to it with ordinary effort doesn't mean other fielders couldn't have.  The rule is in place to protect the OT from this.  Call the IFF.  

IFF states for LL "ordinary play"  8-10 U its only called if the player is under the ball at its peak and or tracking it properly.

Based on the way OP read it F6 got a late jump on the ball and he raced to get there and barely got a glove on it.  So NO that is NOT an ordinary effort that is extra ordinary and not routine.

So lets just go by what the OP wrote how the umpires there saw it and I believe they are correct.

 

I mean lets not get into some shouting match what IFF rule is because I could tell you I have NOT called it and or Called it correctly more times than not in the past 5 years and a lot of other umpires argue it is not yet when I bring it to what LL teaches they quote the rule and say Yep you called it correctly.   Even 1 that the 2nd baseman drifted out onto the OF grass 15 feet behind the 1st baseman and was calling I got it.  Yeah I called that and the rest of my 4 man crew crapped on me for it but the UIC said NO that was correct the 2nd baseman was Under the ball and at that point yes its an IFF even though he is 15 feet into the grass.

 

[Velho]

2 hours ago, aaluck said:

On 6/20/2021 at 11:36 AM, Guest B Smith said:

they let the runner who came home from third score and the inning continued with only 2 outs. Was this correct?

This doesn't make much sense to me.  What did they do with the TWO guys on first base?  We know one of them is out (lead I'm assuming unless the throw beat the BR) and we know we have the out at home on the force.

My best guess is they called IFF after the fact. BR is out so force is off. R3 advanced at his own peril and was never tagged. Score that run. R1 was unforced so is safe at 1B. 

Generally speaking, my LL District UIC has said calling it after the fact can be the right call (and has done it himself). IFF at 10u is one of the scarier calls to have to decide in the moment (no jinx for my 9s All Star Championship game tonight 😬)

[ArchAngel72]

1 hour ago, urout17 said:

Hmm....had this happen a few years ago.  18U, OBR, R1 and R2, one out, infield playing back.  The BR pops one up right over the pitchers mound.  The pitcher instantly bails on the play.  The SS comes racing in from deep short, trips over the mound and falls, never touching the ball.  The ball hits the front end of the mound and ricochets into foul territory half way between HP and third base.  I had the plate that day. Once I saw the pitcher bail I thought to myself, Ok, NOW who's gonna make this play? No IFF was called. I called foul ball and the next thing I have is a HC coming out asking why the IFF rule wasn't called.  I explained the whole rule which he didn't like but walked away.  It seems a lot of people don't realize there's more to the IFF rule than just runners on base.  

 

I had an 8-10 U  kid hit a pop up right middle of the 3rd base line between plate and 3rd.  F6 never went for it F2 never went for it F1 starred at it and as it started to fall he went racing after it and dove at it hitting his glove in fair and bouncing towards the dugout fence.  I sat there pointing down at the diamond and the runners started running. he took a full 10 seconds getting up and then going to retrieve the ball while a run scored and the kid got a double out of it.

coach says No IFF?   I said Nope is his diving at the ball a normal ordinary effort?

Nope.. its not

[BLWizzRanger]

I read this as F1, realizing that F2 and F5 didn't initially go for the ball, made the decision to go after it - and hence had to dive for it.

I assume, in your judgement, if F1 had moved at the beginning, it still wouldn't have been a normal effort to make a play? And including F2 and F5, it wouldn't have been a normal effort for them either?

I am sure you had to be there to see it, but, I would expect that the popup as you described it would be in a fairly safe area on the field to have a IFF - no matter what the reactions of the players were. 

Can you call an IFF with no movement of players, I guess, is the question? I always assume you could in ones judgement.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

IFF states for LL "ordinary play"  8-10 U its only called if the player is under the ball at its peak and or tracking it properly.

 

I will grant you that LL might have that interp.  The OP does not say LL.  So, if it's not LL, then if F5 *could have moved* to make the play with ordinary effort or if F2 *could have moved* to make the play with ordinary effort (both the movement and ordinary effort based on the average player at that position in that league), then it's an infield fly (if fair).

[Senor Azul]

From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 155):

The actions as well as the inactions of an infielder should be taken into account as to whether the fly ball could have been caught with ordinary effort. Take the following situation:

R1, R2, one out, no count. The batter pops a high fly ball over the pitcher’s mound. As all of the infielders come charging in towards the mound, the pitcher scrambles to get out of the way, and the ball drops in. While none of the other infielders may have had a routine play on the ball, the pitcher could have. He just chose not to. This would still be an Infield Fly.

From the 2021 OBR Definitions of Terms

ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

[Rich Ives]

20 hours ago, urout17 said:

Hmm....had this happen a few years ago.  18U, OBR, R1 and R2, one out, infield playing back.  The BR pops one up right over the pitchers mound.  The pitcher instantly bails on the play.  The SS comes racing in from deep short, trips over the mound and falls, never touching the ball.  The ball hits the front end of the mound and ricochets into foul territory half way between HP and third base.  I had the plate that day. Once I saw the pitcher bail I thought to myself, Ok, NOW who's gonna make this play? No IFF was called. I called foul ball and the next thing I have is a HC coming out asking why the IFF rule wasn't called.  I explained the whole rule which he didn't like but walked away.  It seems a lot of people don't realize there's more to the IFF rule than just runners on base.  

The pitcher could have caught it with ordinary effort. It's an IFF.

[beerguy55]

21 hours ago, urout17 said:

Hmm....had this happen a few years ago.  18U, OBR, R1 and R2, one out, infield playing back.  The BR pops one up right over the pitchers mound.  The pitcher instantly bails on the play.  The SS comes racing in from deep short, trips over the mound and falls, never touching the ball.  The ball hits the front end of the mound and ricochets into foul territory half way between HP and third base.  I had the plate that day. Once I saw the pitcher bail I thought to myself, Ok, NOW who's gonna make this play? No IFF was called. I called foul ball and the next thing I have is a HC coming out asking why the IFF rule wasn't called.  I explained the whole rule which he didn't like but walked away.  It seems a lot of people don't realize there's more to the IFF rule than just runners on base.  

Don't do this.

Luckily it went foul, so it was moot.   You'd have an entire SH*#storm on your plate if the defense turned a double play here.  This is an easy "IFF if fair".

F1 could make the catch with ordinary effort...his choice to bail has no bearing on this.

In the long run, you'll get far less grief calling IFF's you shouldn't, then not calling ones you should....if you're going to err, err to the side that doesn't end with cheap double plays.   The rule is there to protect the offense...so protect the offense.