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Situation that really only applies to specific little leagues...


SH0102

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So my son was umpiring a 13/14u rec game yesterday and a situation arose that literally can not happen in HS and above, so I wasn't sure if what we discussed after the fact was correct.

Specific Rule to this league is that a team can only score 5 runs in an inning.  Even if you hit a grand slam after 4 are in, making runs 5 - 8, only 5 runs count.

Anyways, visiting team had scored 4 runs and had the bases loaded with 1 out.  Batter is walked, effectively walking in the 5th run and ending the inning.  The situation?

R1 and R2 never touched their next bags....once the batter walked, he trotted to first and R3 came home, but R1 and R2 got about halfway, turned back to their dugout and left the field.

Now, no appeal was made, but I guess I was wondering about if they did...could they have appealed to 3rd and then 2nd for two "force outs" and negate the run?  For me, that seemed like a definite yes.  My bigger question was, if they appealed to 2nd and then 3rd, would the out at 2nd remove the force on R2, thus making it a time play and run does score?  Can you even negate a force on a walk?  It's not like by declaring R1 out, R2 could turn around and run back to 2nd.

I say this can't really happen b/c in HS and above, this situation could only present itself in a walk-off situation, and in those cases, batter and R3 need only advance (at least in NCAA...I need to double check that for HS)

Any thoughts?

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41 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I would treat this as a game-winning walk -- under OBR only the BR and R3 need to advance.

Agreed (at most). R3 touch home at least.

5 runs is a severe limitation that's changed the game already and I've only seen it in LL 10U and lower and Fall ball 12U and lower. Both clearly Rec ball. DHC that's going to get picky on that should be worried about other things like A) snacks after the game and B) not giving up 5 runs.

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Haha, while I appreciate the humorous comments, I have to actually believe that runners not advancing and touching is not "looking for ____" (trouble/$***), its an obligation they have.

I do however like the thought process of treating it like a game ending situation, since as I stated, that is it's only parallel to the higher levels, so using the same thought process, as long as B-R and R3 advance, run counts.

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I haven't worked HS for decades, so I don't know: does NFHS require all runners to advance on an award? I seem to recall this is so, but I don't really know.

I don't work LL, so I don't know: does LL require all runners to advance on an award? 

If a rule set requires all forced runners to advance on an award, and if such a runner does not advance, and the other team "appeals" to you, you can't ignore the infraction. You haven't gone looking for trouble--it's been thrown at you!

Or are all codes identical to OBR? If so, then please ignore my idle speculations.

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Thank you, Coach. I assumed you or Senor Azul would provide the answer. I truly did not know, and a quick scan of the on-line rules (or at least the version I could find) was of little help.

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This addresses end of the game. You could analogize it to the 5 run rule with less than 2 outs I suppose. Preventive umpiring can come into heavy play here as well.

Failing that, I'm still going with "Coach, isn't the real question vanilla or chocolate?" :) 

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18 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I might suggest that in this case, it would be a good idea to not go looking for trouble. You will probably find it.

I agree.  For me I'm even going so far as to tell R3 to touch home if he doesn't and we are moving on. At this level and with this rule in place everyone knows that's 5 when the walk is issued.

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8 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Haha, while I appreciate the humorous comments, I have to actually believe that runners not advancing and touching is not "looking for ____" (trouble/$***), its an obligation they have.

I wasn't making an attempt at humor. This league has local rules that address, in my opinion, the relatively low level of play for the age group.

When enforcing the rules of the league it is probably a far better idea to use the rule book to solve problems than to create problems, as our friend @JonnyCat has mentioned many times in the past.

Regardless of what league or what level or what sport one may be officiating, One will probably find it far more productive to officiate with the book rather than by the book.

By enforcing the rules that you are wondering about in this situation, you will run the significant risk of being labeled an OOO.

YMMV

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On 6/15/2021 at 3:30 PM, SH0102 said:

So my son was umpiring a 13/14u rec game

This needs to be said kindly, but frankly… your son is calling a near-meaningless game, or what would amount to be a glorified scrimmage. Especially since they’ve put in a 5-run-per-inning cap. Typically, these exist in tyke ball ( < 8 yr olds), but I’ve even called games with a run cap for 10U… but these are kids who are relatively new to baseball. 

And that’s the point of this… “organized activity” – to foster participation and involvement by everybody, not so much what the score is at the end. This isn’t reserved to just the lightly-skilled youth, either; we have similar formats in a number of elite, prominent events here in Arizona, where clubs roll in to participate in games showcasing individual talents and skills in front of coaches, recruiters and scouts. These “showcase games” often have batter limits (5 or 6 batters faced per inning), HBP is a Ball and the Batter stays at-bat, there are hard pitch limits, players can be subbed or pinched for at any time, and if a director bellows, “Roll the inning!”, we (as umpires) comply, call “Time” and roll it, regardless the count, outs, or situation. Interference and obstructions are, of course, called; but you never have FPSR instances, for example, because while you want to be competitive, everyone wants to see the skill of a defense turning the DP, not the aggression of a runner trying to break it up (and possibly get himself or a fielder hurt). 

Context. Context is the point I’m making. Understand the context you’re operating within. 

So, if it’s understood that the inning is rolled with the scoring of the 5th run, then we need two things to happen – advanced runner to touch home, and BR to be safe at 1B (if on a walk, as you say). Everything else – in this context – doesn’t matter.

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