Missed bag

[Guest Nate]

No runners on, two outs. Batter gets walked. The batter happens to be the catcher. Ball four got by the defensive catcher and went to the backstop. The batter then rounds first, but misses the bag. Coach says “Time! Pinch runner for my catcher.” The runner who never touched first, walks off the field. The pinch runner DID touch first. No appeal, but if there was, what is the ruling? Would the pinch runner be out because the original runner didn’t touch first base? Or would it not matter because the pinch runner touched first for him?

[Rich Ives]

2 minutes ago, Guest Nate said:

No runners on, two outs. Batter gets walked. The batter happens to be the catcher. Ball four got by the defensive catcher and went to the backstop. The batter then rounds first, but misses the bag. Coach says “Time! Pinch runner for my catcher.” The runner who never touched first, walks off the field. The pinch runner DID touch first. No appeal, but if there was, what is the ruling? Would the pinch runner be out because the original runner didn’t touch first base? Or would it not matter because the pinch runner touched first for him?

The runner is on the base. Corrected the error. No one can be out. 

[noumpere]

Except in FED, once time is called, there will be no appeal -- you can't appeal while the ball is dead, and the pinch runner corrects the error.

[Senor Azul]

Nate, what rule set was in effect for your game? You state the coach called for time--so did your umpire actually grant time? If so, exactly when did he grant time? Was there still any possible play?

FED:  If a batter receives ball four, the umpire shall not grant time until the batter reaches first. (2-4-2; 2.4.2)

FED rule 2-4-2:  A base on balls is an award of first base (often referred to as a “walk”) if a batter receives four such balls. The batter must (emphasis added) go immediately to first base before time-out is called.

FED Case Book Play 2.4.2 SITUATION:  B1 receives ball four and he or a teammate or coach of Team A immediately requests time. RULING:  The umpire shall ignore the request and order B1 to go to first base, after which a player or coach of Team A may request time.

NCAA:  Same as FED. (2021-2022 NCAA rule 6-1a Note 2)

OBR: Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  “In theory, an umpire should not grant time until all runners have reached their awarded bases. However, in practice, umpires may grant time when they are certain that no runner is attempting, or going to attempt, to advance beyond his award.” (emphasis added)

[SH0102]

I happened to be at this game, so let me clarify a couple thinks:

NFHS rule set

batter got ball four on a ball in the dirt that got past the catcher so he did a “hard 90”

Bc the catcher was slow to get to the ball, batter rounded first and went 5-10 feet towards second , but missed 1B on his initial time-by

No play was being made on anybody and batter was walking back towards first when coach just yelled “time for courtesy runner” (for catcher) and the batter just walked to dugout, never having touched first.

The courtesy runner came out and stood on first.

As with many tourney games that allow courtesy runners, most people just monotonously swap runner for batter.  Time was granted bc HPU didn’t know batter missed. (Also, I don’t think BU would deny the timeout until he touched or was put out as that is basically announcing he missed)

Guess question being asked by OP is when could defense have snagged an out…as soon as he rounded without touching?  Could they have gotten it during time up until courtesy runner took his spot at first?

[Replacematt]

19 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Guess question being asked by OP is when could defense have snagged an out…as soon as he rounded without touching?  Could they have gotten it during time up until courtesy runner took his spot at first?

Color me surprised that FED didn't think of this problem when adding the dead-ball appeal...

I would have to say that there would be a window from the moment the batter-runner misses the base until they or the replacement touches it.

And if that's incorrect, then there's a need for further clarification (and, again, I'm shocked.)

[beerguy55]

19 hours ago, Matt said:

I would have to say that there would be a window from the moment the batter-runner misses the base until they or the replacement touches it.

I would think so...I'd think that as soon as B/R rounds and misses first there could be a live-ball appeal...and then at the moment it is determined that "Time" is granted it would turn into a dead-ball verbal appeal until the courtesy runner reached the base.  (and previous B/R can't correct it once the courtesy runner is declared)  For all intents and purposes, even if the ball was thrown to F3 and he touched first during the "dead" period it would somehow at some point become a verbal appeal...if nothing else, at some point if the umps say nothing someone will say "but he missed the base" and that would be enough, right?  

[agdz59]

5 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I would think so...I'd think that as soon as B/R rounds and misses first there could be a live-ball appeal...and then at the moment it is determined that "Time" is granted it would turn into a dead-ball verbal appeal until the courtesy runner reached the base.  (and previous B/R can't correct it once the courtesy runner is declared)  For all intents and purposes, even if the ball was thrown to F3 and he touched first during the "dead" period it would somehow at some point become a verbal appeal...if nothing else, at some point if the umps say nothing someone will say "but he missed the base" and that would be enough, right?  

Yes, in FED that is enough. At least around here.

[MadMax]

You guys are correct that a Walk is a Live Ball Award of 1B, but allow me to present two derivatives of the OP situation that demonstrate how absurd it is to scrutinize the minutiae of this rule: 

• Instead of the ball going to the backstop, Ball 4 goes through (or under) the backstop. It’s now a Dead Ball. There is (still) a 1-base award for the B/R, which is 1B. With the ball dead, the BR starts up the line a few steps, and is handing his bat, elbow guard, and shin guard to the On Deck Batter when the OTHC sends a PR (or CR, if Catcher or Pitcher was batting) out to 1B, and the BR just stops de-gearing and heads to the dugout. 
• The Batter gets HBP in an injurious manner. Ball is (now) Dead. Trainer, Medic, and/or Emergency Services need to carefully triage and then move  player directly off the field. Substitute is sent to 1B. 

Tell me with a straight face that you’re calling an Out on appeal, or for Abandonment, in either case. 

Common sense still has value here. 

And before you start typing so as to quibble about this, there are plenty of times that a DTHC (or DTAC/DTPC) has come marching out of the dugout immediately after Ball 4 is called, making a beeline for the mound to talk with or pull his pitcher. Shouting at him to stop and wait, or cautioning him or warning him is rather shoddy, confrontational game management, especially when many of these Batters linger, de-gearing and dropping the bat “on their own sweet time” before heading to 1B. Ball 4 at the backstop? I understand that, the BR has the latitude to try and attempt to advance beyond 1B, and we (umpires) should not be granting Time until the ball has been secured and all baserunning has ceased. That aside, most of this is routine. 

And yes, there is MLB precedence for this (and NCAA too) – plenty of times, Ball 4 skips in the dirt, and promptly after, the PU is calling Time and is changing the ball out, often before the BR has taken more than a step towards 1B. 

Again, I understand there’s a difference between a ball in F2’s possession and a live ball at the backstop.