Why no "We're in potential U3K situation" mechanic?

[agdz59]

Got to thinking about this.  It's easy to miss a transition from no-U3k situation to U3K situation.  For instance, 1 out, R1, R2, 2-2 count.  U3K not in effect. Pickoff attempt goes past F3 and runners move up.  Now its R2, R3 and U3K IS in effect.

We've got a mechanic for signaling IFF in effect and brushing it away when it no longer is.  I find its easy to lose track of U3K possibilities if there's a lot of other stuff happening and mechanics along the line of IFF would seem to be  worth considering.

Is there a reason there isn't one?

[JonnyCat]

Interesting question. I've often wondered about that, too. We have signals for time plays, as well.

Maybe the powers that be think that type of signal will give one team an advantage? That, or no one has ever though about it.

Curious to see if anyone else has a take on this.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

Got to thinking about this.  It's easy to miss a transition from no-U3k situation to U3K situation.  For instance, 1 out, R1, R2, 2-2 count.  U3K not in effect. Oickoff attempt goes past F3 and runners move up.  Now its R2, R3 and U3K IS in effect.

We've got a mechanic for signalling IFF in effect and brushing it away when it no longer is.  I find its easy to lose track of U3K possibilities if there's a lot of other stuff happening and mechanics along the line of IFF would seem to be  worth considering.

Is there a reason there isn't one?

I’ve been told the wipe off is not an approved signal for IFF no longer in effect. You just signal the next rotation. Who is we that says we have a mechanic that brushes off an IFF. I’ve seen it used/briefed. Is there a reason that we don’t have a signal with R3 that a whole bunch of sht can happen at the plate if R3 starts coming home. You have to umpire 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Respectfully, while I acknowledge "wiping off the IFF" is no longer an official mechanic, I still do it anytime I am working with a new umpire or any other partner I have any reasons to be uncertain about...feel free to ask me why I do this.

As for no U3K pre-pitch signal...most, not all of the time, PU is giving the count with two strikes. THAT...should be the crew's clue to think about the other U3K qualifiers and could we have that situation?

~Dawg

[agdz59]

6 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

As for no U3K pre-pitch signal...most, not all of the time, PU is giving the count with two strikes. THAT...should be the crew's clue to think about the other U3K qualifiers and could we have that situation?

~Dawg

Yes it should. But two things:

1. We could say the same for IFF when PU signals they've got to 'stay home'.

2. The U3K potential, as in my example, can change while two strikes are already on the batter and would not otherwise indicate the need to give the count again.

One possible reason I thought of would be because lack of calling IFF could cause an extra 1 or 2 outs while lack of calling dropped third means only an easier ability for the offense to avoid an out.

[MadMax]

13 hours ago, agdz59 said:

We've got a mechanic for signaling IFF in effect and brushing it away when it no longer is.

No we don’t. 

Since the day I worked my first game in Arizona (in 2015), and working ≈ 400 games per year with and among a variety of umpires, I’ve seen that signal from a partner once; and if seen while I’m outside the fence, that umpire has been dissuaded from using it further by a trainer / supervisor / partner-in-the-know. We just don’t need it. 

And while on the topic of the IFF signal, how many different variations of that exist, eh? I’ve gone on record as saying that I hate pre-games, and that I should be able to walk onto a field at game-time, ask two questions: 

1. What Ruleset is this we’re playing under? 
2. Who am I working with? 

… and conduct an effective game. 

Yet, there are several (we’re talking more than six) variations of the IFF signal, any of which my PU partner will fire off towards me if/when we have an IFF situation. I always give the one back that I know and use (over the right shoulder; it’s the one taught at Schools, and what MiLB uses). If I’m on PU, I give that same signal; most of my BU partners mimic it back (now exposed to the “proper” way to do it 😉), while others mimic back using their own variation… 

The point is, does this variation of signal change the situation or potential call that it is signaling? No, it does not. If we (umpires) don’t signal at all, does that mean it isn’t an IFF situation? No it does not. 

Furthermore, to whose benefit are we signaling? The approved protocol is that the PU is the one who initiates all pre-pitch signals. Well, if we get down to brass tacks, what importance does the Time-Play-with-2-Outs have to the BU(s)? None, if you think about it. Only the PU needs to recognize a Time Play occurring and apply judgement as to whether to score a/the run(s) or not. So, the PU is giving… a reminding signal… to himself? 🤔

A U3K is much the same. Again, the PU is the one who (should) initiate signals. Think this through… what do the BUs have to do with a U3K, besides reading and reacting to any action as it unfolds? If PU is to give a special signal about a potential U3K, to whose benefit is it? Well, almost wholly his own… so again, it’s largely a self-reminder… so why give it? 

I have the honor and benefit of working with some regular, recurring faces throughout the year here in Arizona, including several of my fellow Vultures. Even when on the road show, I work with the same crew every day for 80 days. We get to a point where signaling is largely unnecessary, since we recognize situations so readily, and know each others’ responsibilities so well. On one noteworthy occasion, I was working a high-level tournament game with not only a fellow Vulture, but my housemate at that time. I’d been living alongside him for 2 years, and had worked some 200 games together. An evaluator was circulating amongst the complex fields, observing, taking notes, and giving feedback. At the conclusion of our game, MFV and I were standing in the locker room, when said evaluator approached us and proffered his only bit of feedback, “You two… you don’t pre-pitch signal. Why aren’t you pre-pitch signaling on every new situation?” 
MFV looked at him oddly and replied, “You do realize that’s my housemate, right?” 

We have colleagues in Arizona who work with each other so often, they give football signals between each other pre-pitch, or make up unique… hand gestures… just to look silly. 

Your regular, uniform, and consistent use of signals doesn’t make you a “better” umpire. Your ability (skill, if you will) to recognize, read, react and then apply rules and judgement to plays-in-action does. Then, coordinating that skill with 1 or 3 other umpires is where it really gets intense. Sure, signaling is important within that dynamic, but not crucial, and when working with colleagues who are cut from the same cloth as you, largely unnecessary. 

[stevis]

30 minutes ago, MadMax said:

 working ≈ 400 games per year

 

Max, I love reading your posts and always learn a lot.

But I think I found a distinct difference between you, and many of us less experienced umpires, on signalling needs.

Not specifically saying we need a U3K signal--but in my case, running a teen and volunteer Little League umpire program, it's nice to try to instill the signal rituals that reinforce the situational awareness you have ingrained in yourself through experience.

I mean so few of them listen to me anyway but i try gosh darn it I try

[Velho]

17 minutes ago, MadMax said:

what importance does the Time-Play-with-2-Outs have to the BU(s)? None, if you think about it. Only the PU needs to recognize a Time Play occurring and apply judgement as to whether to score a/the run(s) or not. So, the PU is giving… a reminding signal… to himself? 🤔

As BU, the signal reminds me that I need to be vocal on even the most obvious non-force out, tag where the ball beats runner by 15 feet for example. 

Great points and perspective Max. I'd love to have the number of games in my life that you've had with that one person. Working with various levels of experience in LL the signals help us remind each other of the situations (which can change in one pitch - even a nice strike that goes to the back stop). I'm lucky to get 1-2 games a week so the pure muscle/mental memory isn't there but I feel it getting better every game. I use them even when my partner is a random parent who has no idea what I'm doing. The physical helps sink in the mental for me.

37 minutes ago, MadMax said:

14 hours ago, agdz59 said:

We've got a mechanic for signaling IFF in effect and brushing it away when it no longer is.

No we don’t. 

I assume you mean "no mechanic for signaling IFF no longer in effect". You're operating at levels far beyond me and I don't imagine you were being snarky but... official or not, there is a mechanic and it is used in LL. If that means we're less respected, so be it. I'd rather that then have IFF accidentally called be 1 pitch ago with same batter it was in effect.

 

As for dropped U3K mechanic, continuing to see the cluster of BRs flying around and teams acting as if it's in effect when it's not (including son's HS playof game yesterday and every so often in MLB), maybe it needs to be a flashing light on the scoreboard for everyone to be aware. 🤔

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, Velho said:

As BU, the signal reminds me that I need to be vocal

Why?  If you have good timing, the vocal out will come long after (well, "long after" in umpire terms) the tag and the timing of the run scoring or not.

And, if you are going to give it, you should give it with R1, R3 and one out (watch for the reverse double play that turns into a time play) or R2, R3 and one out for the leaving soon appeal at second (that gets asked so often on these forums).

I do agree that more communication is needed for newer umpires than for more experienced umpires -- if nothing else, just to help them keep their heads in the game.  For experienced umpires, the signal is often just a subtle finger or wrist flick -- and it's just a reminder to reset the mental indiclicker we all use rather than something specifically new.

[Velho]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Why?  If you have good timing, the vocal out will come long after (well, "long after" in umpire terms) the tag and the timing of the run scoring or not.

That's my point. For example, R2, 2 outs. BR gets tagged out trying to stretch a hit into a double. As BU, I will accelerate and increase the volume on the "Out" call to assist PU in determining if R2 scores or not. Yep, risk that the ball comes out in which I pull back the out and the run plates either way. I know that would make me look bad but missing the run counting is a game changer. Devils bargain I supopose. Happy to hear feedback.

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

And, if you are going to give it, you should give it with R1, R3 and one out (watch for the reverse double play that turns into a time play) or R2, R3 and one out for the leaving soon appeal at second (that gets asked so often on these forums).

Yeah. That's in the back on my mind on those plays too. Don't signal since it would cause more confusion (80/20 rule, well 95/5 really here I guess) but internally I'm thinking about it the same if we get into the 5% case.

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I do agree that more communication is needed for newer umpires than for more experienced umpires -- if nothing else, just to help them keep their heads in the game.  For experienced umpires, the signal is often just a subtle finger or wrist flick -- and it's just a reminder to reset the mental indiclicker we all use rather than something specifically new.

Right on. Not need for semaphore out there.

[Vegas_Ump]

Just a thought.

When I was a beginning my umpiring career, we used a ton of signals between the PU and the FU to make sure we were on the same page.  IFF, U3K, "I'm staying home", timing play, etc.

After a few years.....34 to be exact....I got the idea that with an experienced partner with whom you have worked a lot you don't need a whole lot of signals.  You know, for instance, that an IFF is possible, and if there's runner advancement because of a passed ball, you no longer have it.  You know that!

I work with one very experienced umpire who appears to be afflicted with St Vitus Dance with two outs!  Holy cow, he signals about 500 situations that are either now "on" or "off".

It seems to me that before every pitch, both umpires should be checking runners and know what's possible.  I give the number of outs before each batter because it may mean something.  And I give the count a lot for the benefit of not only the players but for my partner and myself!  What can happen next with this situation?  I don't need a JumboTron to advertise it.

I keep "secret" signals to a minimum:  1-3 play and IFF possible.  That's about it.  I don't brush a signal off;  if runners advance and change the situation, I know that, and I expect my partner to know that.

Yes, experience level matters I guess.  

JMO.

Mike

Las Vegas

[MT73]

I was taught the IFF brush off in 2008.

I still use it but have noticed that no one else does.

‘Now I see why.

‘What is the current signal for IFF?

I use the fist or 1 finger to forehead but that too may be outdated.

 

[Tborze]

I grab my crotch.

[DevildogUmp]

5 hours ago, MadMax said:

No we don’t. 

Since the day I worked my first game in Arizona (in 2015), and working ≈ 400 games per year with and among a variety of umpires, I’ve seen that signal from a partner once; and if seen while I’m outside the fence, that umpire has been dissuaded from using it further by a trainer / supervisor / partner-in-the-know. We just don’t need it. 

And while on the topic of the IFF signal, how many different variations of that exist, eh? I’ve gone on record as saying that I hate pre-games, and that I should be able to walk onto a field at game-time, ask two questions: 

1. What Ruleset is this we’re playing under? 
2. Who am I working with? 

… and conduct an effective game. 

Yet, there are several (we’re talking more than six) variations of the IFF signal, any of which my PU partner will fire off towards me if/when we have an IFF situation. I always give the one back that I know and use (over the right shoulder; it’s the one taught at Schools, and what MiLB uses). If I’m on PU, I give that same signal; most of my BU partners mimic it back (now exposed to the “proper” way to do it 😉), while others mimic back using their own variation… 

The point is, does this variation of signal change the situation or potential call that it is signaling? No, it does not. If we (umpires) don’t signal at all, does that mean it isn’t an IFF situation? No it does not. 

Furthermore, to whose benefit are we signaling? The approved protocol is that the PU is the one who initiates all pre-pitch signals. Well, if we get down to brass tacks, what importance does the Time-Play-with-2-Outs have to the BU(s)? None, if you think about it. Only the PU needs to recognize a Time Play occurring and apply judgement as to whether to score a/the run(s) or not. So, the PU is giving… a reminding signal… to himself? 🤔

A U3K is much the same. Again, the PU is the one who (should) initiate signals. Think this through… what do the BUs have to do with a U3K, besides reading and reacting to any action as it unfolds? If PU is to give a special signal about a potential U3K, to whose benefit is it? Well, almost wholly his own… so again, it’s largely a self-reminder… so why give it? 

I have the honor and benefit of working with some regular, recurring faces throughout the year here in Arizona, including several of my fellow Vultures. Even when on the road show, I work with the same crew every day for 80 days. We get to a point where signaling is largely unnecessary, since we recognize situations so readily, and know each others’ responsibilities so well. On one noteworthy occasion, I was working a high-level tournament game with not only a fellow Vulture, but my housemate at that time. I’d been living alongside him for 2 years, and had worked some 200 games together. An evaluator was circulating amongst the complex fields, observing, taking notes, and giving feedback. At the conclusion of our game, MFV and I were standing in the locker room, when said evaluator approached us and proffered his only bit of feedback, “You two… you don’t pre-pitch signal. Why aren’t you pre-pitch signaling on every new situation?” 
MFV looked at him oddly and replied, “You do realize that’s my housemate, right?” 

We have colleagues in Arizona who work with each other so often, they give football signals between each other pre-pitch, or make up unique… hand gestures… just to look silly. 

Your regular, uniform, and consistent use of signals doesn’t make you a “better” umpire. Your ability (skill, if you will) to recognize, read, react and then apply rules and judgement to plays-in-action does. Then, coordinating that skill with 1 or 3 other umpires is where it really gets intense. Sure, signaling is important within that dynamic, but not crucial, and when working with colleagues who are cut from the same cloth as you, largely unnecessary. 

Max, what is the IFF signal over the right shoulder? The only 2 IFF signals I have ever learned or seen is the arm across the chest (old and discontinued) and the brim of the hat,

Matt

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

I grab my crotch.

This makes sense on so many levels

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

Right on. Not need for semaphore out there.

"Two outs; time play; I'm staying home" -- that's ONE signal (at most), not three.

"Infield Fly situation; I've got third on a fly ball " -- that's ONE signal (at most), not two (you can't have the "I've got third" without it being an infield fly situation)

[agdz59]

7 hours ago, MadMax said:

A U3K is much the same. Again, the PU is the one who (should) initiate signals. Think this through… what do the BUs have to do with a U3K, besides reading and reacting to any action as it unfolds? If PU is to give a special signal about a potential U3K, to whose benefit is it? Well, almost wholly his own… so again, it’s largely a self-reminder… so why give it? 

Thanks for the reply Max. 

 

In my association, where I am judged and evaluated, the expectation is the BU in 2-man will signal a drop or a catch on a U3K in case the PU is blocked out.  This is where the question comes from.  Around here, when I am on the bases, I need to know U3K situations so I am ready to point to the ground (no catch) or make a fist at my hip (catch) when it happens.

Thanks again.