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13 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Alright, I'll go ahead and bring this up ... 

I was always taught (yes, even in clinics) that you don't go for help on bunt attempts.

 

I attended and / or taught in over a hundred (literally) clinics in IL and never heard (or taught) not to go for help on a bunt.

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If you see the bat move and you're entirely blocked out, go to your partner immediately. 

Yes.   And when the defense was exclaiming "He went..." that is asking you to go for help.

There's nothing to lose by just doing it. By waiting, the fuse is already lit.

LL Rules:  In baseball, just holding the bat out is not usually an offer.  Call the pitch on its merits.  If I see any attempt to put the bat on the ball--even if he eventually takes--it's an offer.  (100% judgement, and if asked as a FU, I would judge similarly.)

But in LL Softball, the batter MUST pull the bat back.  Holding the bat motionless is still an offer!

I assert that among all the rule books, there may be variations on what constitutes an offer and what does not.  And of course all the "volunteer umpires" in the stands surely know the differences! 😉

Mike

Las Vegas

 

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45 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

"volunteer umpires" in the stands surely know the differences! 😉

Of course. They refer to the Red book:

1. Is my team batting? Everyone relax. Obviously no offer.

2.Is my team on defense? Offer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Of course. They refer to the Red book:
1. Is my team batting? Everyone relax. Obviously no offer.
2.Is my team on defense? Offer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post of the year.


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On 6/10/2021 at 2:22 PM, The Man in Blue said:

NONE of that is a proper request for an appeal or reason for you to go to your partner.  What do we always say about coach appeals?  "They must be specific."  What is it you think I missed coach?  No fishing trips.

FIrst...this isn't an "appeal", it's an ask for help.

Second...even on appeals you as a ump are required/strongly suggested to use some degree of common sense and/or judgment to determine what the fielder is trying to achieve, and whether through some implied action whether they were obvious enough to their appeal attempt.   The appeal must be evident, obvious, apparent and intentional, not accidental...there is no requirement for it to be explicit.  There are many times an appeal is implied and is accepted as an appeal.  There is no requirement to formally declare in specific language your request to appeal.

The checked swing "appeal" is IMO naturally to an even lower standard, because, as stated, it's not an appeal. The entire bench saying that he offered should be an implied request you get help.   Now, you probably don't want it to be a habit..."Coach, this is your free one, next time ask nicely" - and of course, there's no requirement to honor the request, in FED, but to ignore it as an improper request is playing lawyer.   You're an arbiter, not a bureaucrat.

Otherwise, have some fun and make the defense say "Mister Umpire, I doth formally request you obtain the assistance of the learned gentleman in the field to determine if the honorable batter doth strucketh at the pitch."

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On 6/10/2021 at 6:56 PM, Velho said:
On 6/10/2021 at 6:30 PM, Matt said:

I go for help unasked.

I need to do this more. After all year working with RPV* I can do this now. Hope they’re ready. 😁 Better pregame it!

I did this last night (not on a bunt but normal check swing).

Check swing...

Did he go? Probably not but I guess he could have. Hey! Let's ask Nick. "Did he go?!?" 

"No he did not"

"The count is 3 balls no strikes"

Felt great.

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Last Friday, batter squares to bunt, and pitch is right at him in the box, pitch hits him in the chest. I'm blocked behind the plate. I immediately jumped out to my partner in "C," "Did he go?"  "No!"  "Then that's a hit batter!" So much for not checking with your partner on bunt attempts or when he's in "C."

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2 hours ago, Recontra said:

Last Friday, batter squares to bunt, and pitch is right at him in the box, pitch hits him in the chest. I'm blocked behind the plate. I immediately jumped out to my partner in "C," "Did he go?"  "No!"  "Then that's a hit batter!" So much for not checking with your partner on bunt attempts or when he's in "C."

Hey @Umpire in Chief site is broken. I can only like this once.

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On 6/14/2021 at 2:22 PM, beerguy55 said:

FIrst...this isn't an "appeal", it's an ask for help.

Second...even on appeals you as a ump are required/strongly suggested to use some degree of common sense and/or judgment to determine what the fielder is trying to achieve, and whether through some implied action whether they were obvious enough to their appeal attempt.   The appeal must be evident, obvious, apparent and intentional, not accidental...there is no requirement for it to be explicit.  There are many times an appeal is implied and is accepted as an appeal.  There is no requirement to formally declare in specific language your request to appeal.

The checked swing "appeal" is IMO naturally to an even lower standard, because, as stated, it's not an appeal. The entire bench saying that he offered should be an implied request you get help.   Now, you probably don't want it to be a habit..."Coach, this is your free one, next time ask nicely" - and of course, there's no requirement to honor the request, in FED, but to ignore it as an improper request is playing lawyer.   You're an arbiter, not a bureaucrat.

Otherwise, have some fun and make the defense say "Mister Umpire, I doth formally request you obtain the assistance of the learned gentleman in the field to determine if the honorable batter doth strucketh at the pitch."

D'oh!  And I am usually on top of that distinction!  Thank you -- now I can say "No coach, that is not an appealable play."  😉

My goal is NOT to be a redass with coaches making appeals.  I do believe in the value of being and educator as well as an arbiter.  That said, you are going to get what you give with me.  If a coach is trying to do the right thing and just doesn't know, I am going to help him.  If this is his sixth trip out after complaining the whole game ... well, sounds like he should be an expert to me.  He doesn't need my help.

Requiring a coach to be specific in his request may not be directly from the verbiage in the book, but has long been a standard in umpiring.  I really feel what you said and what I said are the same, but you may not.  Language from the book does not say ANY of those things.  It does say "multiple appeals are permitted as long as they do not become a travesty of the game" (oh, that favorite clause again!).  A fishing expedition of complaints meets "travesty of the game" in my book, so you better be particular on what you are asking.  Sad truth is that most "appeals" or "asks for help" really are "I just didn't like your call."  If you can come out and put together a semi-coherent sentence that amounts to "I think you may have missed this piece because of (feel free to say "I think you were out of position, or I think you got blocked out" -- those things happen), would you go for help?" then I will gladly do so.  I need to know what and why though.

The NFHS rule book also says the people eligible to appeal are "any fielder in possession of the ball" (live) or "a coach or any defensive player" (dead).  Nowhere does it say an appeal can be made by any of the subs on the bench, the scorekeeper, Wilma the lady who runs the ice cream shop and has a sponsor sign in left field, any parent, or the bus driver.  So no, bitching and moaning from the bench is neither an appeal nor an ask for help on a checked swing.  In my games, that comes from one of two people: the coach or the catcher.  It really surprises me you are advocating for a democratic election system from the stands on calls.

I may have to write that last quote in my lineup card holder, but I like it!  😉

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