Wrong Ejection

[Guest Joshua]

Close play at first, possibly pulled the first basemen off the bag. BU called runner out at first. The team batting asked for help. BU said no. The coach then said “I told you to get help, so do it.” The BU threw the coach out of the game. No warning. Was this an ejectable offense? Should there have been a warning first?

[DevildogUmp]

First there is no rule that says a umpire must get help on any rule. Umpires are encouraged to get the call right, but that is not a license for a coach to shop calls. Lots of information missing from this situation. Where was BU? If I'm in A and there is no weird action that may have blocked my view there is no way I am entertaining going to my partner 40' or more away for help. It is my call. If I am in 'B' or 'C', I might agree to go for help, but I would have to have my own doubt on whether I saw everything. Second, the coach's response is very close to the line for me. If there have been other issues during the game or the coach has already been warned, that statement might be enough for the coach to leave early. Coaches do not direct what umpires do or don't do, they can request that umpires get together, but whether or not a defensive player held the bag is a judgement call and you really don't win yourself friends arguing a judgement call.

Matt

[SeeingEyeDog]

I'm not sure where EXACTLY the line is between too much respect...and acting like a hump. This coach was acting like a hump. As described, I have a warning here but, not an ejection. In the end, it's umpire judgement.

As for getting help...let's not confuse RULES with CUSTOMS. I am unaware of a baseball rule set that REQUIRES an umpire to "get help".

As a profession as nearly old as the game itself, umpires at all levels have developed game management, mechanics, etc. over the decades, many of which cover the above situations and other situations where an umpire should go for help.

Understand...I've worked with guys who have said to managers, "You want help on that? Lemme go to my partner..." and when we get together, he wants to talk about Ginger vs. Mary Anne or where we are going for dinner after the game. And then come out of the huddle and keep his call.

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

On the wrong day, he would have removed himself from the game with that comment, too. 

Depending on what else he had been doing that day, he might have removed himself from the game on a good day.  A comment like that is NOT tolerable.  No, no warning was needed.

The coach does not run the game.  The coach does not have the power to tell the umpire what to do.  Going for help is a courtesy, and one that generally should be extended if it is an earnest request.  No, the umpire is NOT REQUIRED to.

There are codes that do require an umpire to grant an appeal on a check swing (as that is an "appeal" by definition).  At no other time is the umpire under any obligation to "do what [coach] said."

[JonnyCat]

I'd like to know the age group. Not that would change anything in my mind. I'm fine with the ejection. I'm willing to bet it was a younger age group.

[Matt]

1 hour ago, Guest Joshua said:

Close play at first, possibly pulled the first basemen off the bag. BU called runner out at first. The team batting asked for help. BU said no. The coach then said “I told you to get help, so do it.” The BU threw the coach out of the game. No warning. Was this an ejectable offense? Should there have been a warning first?

I'm tossing this coach all day, every day. He's directly undermining my authority I need to officiate a baseball game.

[umpstu]

2 hours ago, Guest Nathan Hoversten said:

I’m not exactly sure of the wording in the rule, but i am pretty sure that the umpire would have to get help on pulled foot if asked too. the fact that he didn’t, is the umpires fault. In terms of what the coach said, he is right. he should have got helped and not said “no”. I (as an umpire) wouldn’t have even gave a warning, let alone eject him. I guess i’m just a little confused on why this pushed the base umpire over the limit. If he was chirping all day…..then maybe remind him of his warning (if givin). Anyways, i’m pretty sure this was nothing but a “thin skinned, mean, and selfish” umpire

I can tell you why he might not have asked, he might have actually seen the first baseman's foot on the base.  Why go for help if you're 100% sure of the call?  And no coach should ever talk like that without expecting to get tossed.  That ain't "thin skinned,mean or selfish".  That's the coach ejecting himself.

[pnewton]

7 hours ago, Guest Nathan Hoversten said:

I’m not exactly sure of the wording in the rule, but i am pretty sure that the umpire would have to get help on pulled foot if asked too. the fact that he didn’t, is the umpires fault. In terms of what the coach said, he is right. he should have got helped and not said “no”. I (as an umpire) wouldn’t have even gave a warning, let alone eject him. I guess i’m just a little confused on why this pushed the base umpire over the limit. If he was chirping all day…..then maybe remind him of his warning (if givin). Anyways, i’m pretty sure this was nothing but a “thin skinned, mean, and selfish” umpire

You are incorrect, there is no such rule. Why have more than one umpire if they are going to have to 'get help' anyway?

[beerguy55]

14 hours ago, Guest Joshua said:

The BU threw the coach out of the game. No warning. Was this an ejectable offense?

Well, if this isn't ejectable the only alternative would be physical assault.  Ejections are there so umpires don't have to beat the living SH*# out of obnoxious coaches.

[MadMax]

6 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

so umpires don't have to beat the living SH*# out of obnoxious coaches.

Let’s be fair. This entire situation doesn’t happen if coaches cease expecting umpires to “go for help” simply because they (coaches) don’t like the call. 

On the flip side of that same coin, umpires gotta stop appeasing coaches and trotting on down to “consult” their partner(s). I’m proud of that colleague umpire in the OP who not only rightly refused, but had the fortitude to dump the guy (coach) for such a stupid demand. 

[beerguy55]

43 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Let’s be fair. This entire situation doesn’t happen if coaches cease expecting umpires to “go for help” simply because they (coaches) don’t like the call. 

On the flip side of that same coin, umpires gotta stop appeasing coaches and trotting on down to “consult” their partner(s). I’m proud of that colleague umpire in the OP who not only rightly refused, but had the fortitude to dump the guy (coach) for such a stupid demand. 

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but in my experience many coaches are told "you can ask the ump if he wants to get help" and they hear "you can shop for calls as much as you want" and/or "the ump is your bitch"

I've lost count the number of league and tournament meetings I've attended (or run) where coaches are specifically told by TD's, presidents and UIC's that they can talk to the ump that made the call, they can ask them to talk to their partner and the ump may choose to do so, or not....and five minutes later they're all demanding the ump get help on a play where their player was out by half a step.

They're either genuinely stupid or they're trying to manipulate/trick an umpire into doing something they don't have to do.

I agree - kudos to the ump that says "no, I saw what I needed to see" but can still balance their ego once in a while and get a second opinion when they think they didn't get the whole picture.

One in particular I had - F3 lifted their heel, then came back down...I was pretty sure it came back down too late...I was also pretty sure BU couldn't have seen any of it...I spoke to BU, and said "not sure if you could see it but she came off the bag, can you ask your partner?" and right away he says "nope, saw it all, she lifted her heel, caught the ball, and brought her heel down before the runner"..."OK, thank you"   Good for him.   At that point, doesn't really matter if he was right or not - he saw what he needed to see to assess his judgment.

[ArchAngel72]

Just once if I was PU and some smug coach was slamming my BU for help I want to yell back "Sorry coach I did not see it"

just to fry their butt a little more..

 

[HokieUmp]

That guy's getting run from my game, and there's no warning for it.  Not least of which because I can just *feel* the tone and volume of how it was said.

FTG.

[aaluck]

Gone.

[maven]

On 6/8/2021 at 11:04 PM, Matt said:

I'm tossing this coach all day, every day. He's directly undermining my authority I need to officiate a baseball game.

So much? Sounds like somebody needs a hobby... 

But yeah, ejection.

[Biscuit]

I'm honestly kinda surprised with how many people are saying they'd jump straight to ejection. Like, yeah, this is obviously unacceptable, but I fail to see how it warrants an ejection without a warning. The conversation is absolutely over, and the coach is getting a stern warning, but I just don't see the reason for the ejection. That being said, this feels like a situation where an ejection is probably going to happen, and it time might be counted in seconds rather than minutes.

[noumpere]

29 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

 this feels like a situation where an ejection is probably going to happen, and it time might be counted in seconds rather than minutes.

Why delay the inevitable?

A coach *ordering* an umpire to do something, especially something the umpire doesn't need to do, is almost (<--- added to avoid the absolute) always going to be an ejection.

[Biscuit]

6 hours ago, noumpere said:

Why delay the inevitable?

A coach *ordering* an umpire to do something, especially something the umpire doesn't need to do, is almost (<--- added to avoid the absolute) always going to be an ejection.

Because on an ejection report, you are almost (added for the same reason you did) always protected if you warn first. 

[LRZ]

I don't think of it as being protected. Once I eject and the game goes on to its conclusion, I'll submit my report, including the reason for going straight to the ejection, but what the league subsequently does is not my concern.

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, Biscuit said:

Because on an ejection report, you are almost (added for the same reason you did) always protected if you warn first. 

You have fallen into the coach-speak "I am entitled to a warning so I get one free shot" trap.

 

The warning has it's place; this was not it.

[beerguy55]

16 hours ago, Biscuit said:

Because on an ejection report, you are almost (added for the same reason you did) always protected if you warn first. 

Protected from what, exactly?

 

[MadMax]

On 6/18/2021 at 2:21 PM, beerguy55 said:

Protected from what, exactly?

Certain Tournament Series and Leagues scrutinize ejections, and have been known to (note: not “will” or “shall”) reprimand or fine umpires if the ejection has a dubious, ambiguous, or baited nature, or is lacking a formal warning it should have been prefaced with. 

I’m not saying this practice is doctrine, or acceptable. I merely know of what @Biscuit speaks, and why he might be insulating himself in his game management development. 

[Biscuit]

On 6/18/2021 at 7:06 AM, noumpere said:

You have fallen into the coach-speak "I am entitled to a warning so I get one free shot" trap.

 

The warning has it's place; this was not it.

I've had conversations with conference coordinators, really high level college umpires, and professional umpires that has made it clear that in college and professional baseball, they want warnings if at all possible. There is an informal list of automatics. If it is not one of those (even if it is similar to one of the automatics in nature) you need too warn first, or it will be frowned upon, or at least, not seen as well as it could be. 

[Biscuit]

On 6/18/2021 at 1:21 PM, beerguy55 said:

Protected from what, exactly?

 

Losing assignments/slowing down my progress as an umpire

[LRZ]

36 minutes ago, Biscuit said:

I've had conversations with conference coordinators, really high level college umpires, and professional umpires that has made it clear that in college and professional baseball, they want warnings if at all possible.

This is a good example of a principle appropriate in higher levels of play that is highly inappropriate for youth sports. Warnings may be effective when coaches (and perhaps players, too) understand that their conduct has consequences. Daddy coaches generally do not.