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6-2-4(d) Does run score?


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Had this come up this weekend in a 18U, Fed rules--not sure what the call should be even after going back and looking at book.  

2 outs, 2-1 on the batter, R1, R3, pitcher in windup.  R3 breaks for home on first move. Batter gets completely out of the box with both feet--moves basically to the grass. Pitcher delivers the pitch, R3 safe at home.

“1. If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with both feet or (c) holds up his hand to request “Time,” it shall not be a balk. In (a) and (c), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher. The umpire shall call “Time” and begin play anew. In (b), a strike shall be called on the batter for violation of 7-3-1. In (a), (b) and (c), if the pitcher ­legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live. Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b). If the umpire judges the batter’s action to be a deliberate attempt to create a balk, he will penalize according to 3-3-1n.”

So the question is, does the run score? I know the batter didn't reach first, but the ball is live and the run scored before the enforcement of the rule..or did it? Is this a time play and at what point in time is the batter out--at the time he steps out with both feet (ball delivered, thus two strikes) or after the playing action?

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Why?  The rule clearly states that IF the pitch is legally delivered with BOTH feet out of the box, two strikes.  Legally delivered indicates no stop or hesitation otherwise it wouldn't be legally del

2020 NFHS Case Book Play 6.2.4 Situation H:  R3. There are two outs and B4 has a count of 3-2. While F1 is in motion, B4 requests time-out, which is not granted, and steps out of the box with (a) one

Well... much to the dismay and against the advice of most folks above we met (I was BU) and we called the batter out, canceled the run and ended the 1/2 inning.   Now, I'm still unclear after rea

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6 hours ago, Matt said:

If we're going with that logic (and it did cross my mind) I think we have to assess no strike at all (unless the pitch itself was one) as that is one of the listed exceptions.

But it is not one of the listed exceptions.  Neither the pitcher nor the catcher was making a play at a base.  The pitcher was pitching.

The catcher making a play may have immediately entailed ... but that is not what was happening at the moment.

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3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

But it is not one of the listed exceptions.  Neither the pitcher nor the catcher was making a play at a base.  The pitcher was pitching.

The catcher making a play may have immediately entailed ... but that is not what was happening at the moment.

I think you're trying to dance on the head of a pin. With that logic, he has to stay put until the catcher actually attempts a tag--and by then he's going to be liable for interference.

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I'd rather dance on the head of a pin than MSU.  You said it was one of the exceptions under rule and "avoiding a possible interference on a future play" is not one of the exceptions.  A pitcher delivering a legal pitch -- and the emphasis in the cited section is on it being a legal pitch -- is not making a play on a runner.

Yes, the batter absolutely could be liable for interference.  But when you "design" that play as the offensive coach, you risk the timing being a liability.  You cannot try to use the batter as cover (via timing or physical proximity) for a runner stealing home without the risk of an interference call.

Let's say the catcher, in a rush to get the ball to tag the runner, jumps up and grabs the pitch before it gets to the plate ... what do you have? 

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2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I'd rather dance on the head of a pin than MSU.  You said it was one of the exceptions under rule and "avoiding a possible interference on a future play" is not one of the exceptions.  A pitcher delivering a legal pitch -- and the emphasis in the cited section is on it being a legal pitch -- is not making a play on a runner.

Yes, the batter absolutely could be liable for interference.  But when you "design" that play as the offensive coach, you risk the timing being a liability.  You cannot try to use the batter as cover (via timing or physical proximity) for a runner stealing home without the risk of an interference call.

Let's say the catcher, in a rush to get the ball to tag the runner, jumps up and grabs the pitch before it gets to the plate ... what do you have? 

It's quite the opposite...the batter is avoiding being a cover. 

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11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I'd rather dance on the head of a pin than MSU.  You said it was one of the exceptions under rule and "avoiding a possible interference on a future play" is not one of the exceptions.  A pitcher delivering a legal pitch -- and the emphasis in the cited section is on it being a legal pitch -- is not making a play on a runner.

Yes, the batter absolutely could be liable for interference.  But when you "design" that play as the offensive coach, you risk the timing being a liability.  You cannot try to use the batter as cover (via timing or physical proximity) for a runner stealing home without the risk of an interference call.

Let's say the catcher, in a rush to get the ball to tag the runner, jumps up and grabs the pitch before it gets to the plate ... what do you have? 

This actually happened recently in a HS playoff game, pitcher in windup, R3 starting home, batter steps out of box to allow play at the plate and catcher jumps in front of plate to catch the pitch while R3 slides in safe for a walkoff. But F1 was balked for a stutter step with his pivot foot off the front of the rubber BECAUSE R3 running, not the batter stepping out, caused the balk. I think if you look at 6-2-4-1 you can stop reading after the because if you have R3 running home. That becomes any "cause" of a balk. But in that game the balk saved any controversy because no one had to choose to call or no call CO or literally call 2 strikes. That video should make it to our association rules people for some guidance later. I believe NCAA wants a CI call even with the batter well out of the box. Any MLB plays I've seen have not called CI when this happens but it's hard to determine if the catcher in those plays actually was in front although I believe J-R says there can be no CI if the batter gives up his opportunity. The NCAA plays I've seen have the batter remaining in the box and there is no interference by the batter. If the pitcher doesn't disengage I believe the batter should be coached to remain in the box to add a threat of CI to the play unless the code has an interp that calls CI/CO even with the batter well out of the box. The NCAA rule does not mention hindering the batter so his position might not matter and CI could be called even with him out of the box.

"8-3-p. If, on an attempted squeeze play or steal of home plate, the catcher steps on or in front of home plate without possession of the ball or touches the batter or the bat, the pitcher shall be charged with a balk and the catcher with interference. PENALTY—The ball becomes dead, the batter shall be awarded first base on the interference, the run scores and all other runners advance one base."

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Thank you @Jimurray ... that brought us right to the point I was making. 

I agree with the call in your play and it shows that @aaluck had it right.  How could you have CI/CO in that play if you are saying this is a play at the plate and not a pitch in the originally posted play?  You can't because it is a pitch, not a play, where the batter and catcher have certain rules to follow.

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1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Thank you @Jimurray ... that brought us right to the point I was making. 

I agree with the call in your play and it shows that @aaluck had it right.  How could you have CI/CO in that play if you are saying this is a play at the plate and not a pitch in the originally posted play?  You can't because it is a pitch, not a play, where the batter and catcher have certain rules to follow.

I don't think my play shows that @aaluck had it right.  If there was no balk I can't see calling 2 strikes as in the OP. There can be a pitch and a play at the same time and I would allow the batter to leave the box although he doesn't have to. 

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On 6/9/2021 at 6:13 PM, Jimurray said:

I don't think my play shows that @aaluck had it right.  If there was no balk I can't see calling 2 strikes as in the OP. There can be a pitch and a play at the same time and I would allow the batter to leave the box although he doesn't have to. 

All I can say is this/these rule(s) needs to be cleaned up.  I cannot say I was right or wrong with 100% certainty.  What I can say is I did exactly what I read the rule to state.  As @beerguy55 and @Matt stated it can be read different and maybe their reading is correct.

I understand the no balk, no foul reading. But I cannot reconcile that with subsequent sentence of the legally delivered pitch. To me a legally delivered pitch by necessity means there was no balk (stop/hesitation).

On 6/9/2021 at 6:13 PM, Jimurray said:

If there was no balk I can't see calling 2 strikes as in the OP

....and I see that opposite as the rule specifically states exactly what to do when there is NO balk. To me this language is clear...

“In (a), (b) and (c), if the pitcher ­legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live. Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b).”

Again I may be reading it wrong. 

EDIT:  In fed a balk is immediately dead ball.  There can be no legally delivered pitch after a balk.

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51 minutes ago, aaluck said:

All I can say is this/these rule(s) needs to be cleaned up.  I cannot say I was right or wrong with 100% certainty.  What I can say is I did exactly what I read the rule to state.  As @beerguy55 and @Matt stated it can be read different and maybe their reading is correct.

I understand the no balk, no foul reading. But I cannot reconcile that with subsequent sentence of the legally delivered pitch. To me a legally delivered pitch by necessity means there was no balk (stop/hesitation).

....and I see that opposite as the rule specifically states exactly what to do when there is NO balk. To me this language is clear...

“In (a), (b) and (c), if the pitcher ­legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball remains live. Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b).”

Again I may be reading it wrong. 

EDIT:  In fed a balk is immediately dead ball.  There can be no legally delivered pitch after a balk.

That rule is there to protect the pitcher because the batter does something. It starts out with "because the batter steps out of the box". If the pitcher doesn't balk with R3 coming home there is no "because" and you can allow the batter to step out because there is a play. If the pitcher balks it would not be because the batter stepped out it would be because R3 coming home affected him. Let's say the batter only got one foot out as R3 came home and the pitcher balked. Are you going to call time and assess no penalty as R3 slides in either safe or out? 

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I saved this thread until I had time to read it thoroughly since this I’ve been intrigued since I came across this concept a month or so ago.

Sat down early this morning to go through it and quickly realized I should waited until this aft so I could have something extra in my coffee. The case plays @Senor Azul kindly posted gave me whiplash.

Glad I do LL. Those little scoundrels have to stay on the bag. :)

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